Much has been discussed on this blog
about the existence of god, the power
of prayer and the damnation of hell.
I set out to find more information that
would help me explain why I cannot
believe there is a god. I found this
article and I hope you will take the
time to check it out.
The Justice Defense
The most straightforward explanation for the existence of evil is that we suffer because we deserve to. The Hebrew Bible, for example, repeatedly claims that the destruction God visits upon the Israelites is in retribution for their idolatry; likewise, some Christian apologists argue that the original sin inherited by all humans justifies any punishment God wishes to inflict upon us. Eastern religious traditions often embody this concept in the principle of karma.
The major problem with this explanation is that it fails the test of common experience; evil is plainly not distributed fairly. Everyone knows of instances where the evil have prospered while the good have suffered unjustly. In fact, too often it seems that it usually happens this way. Wars tend to disproportionately harm civilians who had nothing to do with the reasons for fighting; diseases usually strike those who had the closest contact with other sufferers rather than those who deserve it the most. Newborn babies and children suffer as well, sometimes from horrific diseases such as epidermolysis bullosa, cystic fibrosis or Tay-Sachs disease - what sins could they possibly have committed to deserve such a fate? Even Psalm 73 of the Bible notes such a phenomenon. The indiscriminateness, the sheer randomness of suffering refutes this explanation.
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/allpossibleworlds.html
14 comments:
"I set out to find more information that would help me explain why I cannot believe there is a god.
You need MORE help explaining why you can't believe?
Suit yourself.
Perhaps if you spent the same amount of time looking more closely at everything the psalmist said in 73, you'd be a little less conflicted:
"21 When my heart was grieved and my spirit embittered, 22 I was senseless and ignorant; I was a brute beast before you."
At least he came to the realization all this floundering around and whining about his hurt feelings was a waste of time.
You'll never get all the answers you want. That was never promised to you. I certainly haven't gotten all my questions answered. You won't see me running around the internet trying come up with another set of excuses not to believe. As the psalmist said, it's senseless and ignorance.
BTW, have you asked Him yet?
Well, maybe I was a little hard on you there. Its only cuz' I care.
In terms of websites like you posted, they leave a big hole and fail to address it adequately.
They accept the idea and the reality of Evil (capital E!)as a given.
Why?
Because its everywhere. Its observable, its empirical, its tangible. They don't have any reasoned answers as to why it exists or where it came from.
Yet, they deny Good.
When you're dealing with monotheism, the whole Evil thing can be troubling. Can't blame evil on some other god, now can we? Its all on God the Creator's shoulders, right?
So, since it does exist, why would God the Creator of everything allow it...unless there is no God? That website goes to a whole lot of trouble explaining with the usual arguements.
Problem is, all of those arguments are based on certain assumptions the writer cannot verify. Pretty weak stuff, actually.
Maybe to get a different perspective, let's look at...Night and Day. If all you had was Day, you'd have no real understanding of what it was or its qualities unless you had something to compare it to...like Night. In order for Day to have any meaningfulness or significance to us, we gotta have Night. We couldn't appreciate what Day brings us unless we had Night to compare it to.
I think the same thing applies to Good and Evil. If there was no Evil, we'd have no way of understanding fully what Good really is, or the capacity to appreciate it. But, that knowledge has come at a price. Its having Evil in this world.
Now, we had the option in Genesis to pass on the knowledge of Good and Evil. We didn't. Starting from scratch today with no Evil in the world, I think its still in our nature to want to see whats behind the curtain, even when we're told not to look. Even if you don't buy the idea that an Adam and Eve existed to look, fine. We still would.
Why Evil in the first place then? I'm not sure. We get some inklings in Genesis and get more information about Satan later on, but not everything we'd like to know. One thing I can say is whether Satan, Adam and Eve, or you and me, it always gone downhill the second we start thinking we can do without God.
"Problem is, all of those arguments are based on certain assumptions the writer cannot verify. Pretty weak stuff, actually."
What assumptions are you speaking of?
Part 2: The Problem of Evil
Premise (5): A perfectly loving being would desire to eliminate evil.
Yes
Contradiction: But evil does exist. (from (2))
Sure does
Conclusion (8): God does not exist.
Wait! That's it? We have Evil in the world, so God doesn't exist? Preposterous!
The writer is assuming simply because evil exists, there's no God out there that wants to see it eliminated, or can, or will.
"Well, sorry I didn't jump on this earlier, Ebon Musings person. Just when would you like Evil eliminated? Would Thursday, say Ten o'clock be OK?"
He knows everything about the character of God and what's on His mind? When did he find all this out?
Gotta pick up a pizza, be back later
In any scientific exploration or experiment one must make certain assumptions. The writer makes the assumption based on beliefs of the christian faith; that god is omnicient, omnipotent and benevolent. Are you stating that we are wrong about what you believe and often profess?
First things first: Have you asked Him yet?
What I am saying is that about 99% of what's out there like this ebon musings website are starting with this assumption:
"I want to prove that God doesn't exist. I don't want Him to exist. If He did exist, then I'd have to be accountable to Him for my unbelief."
There's nothing 'scientific' about their arguments. Nobody's running any 'experiments' about this. Its sophistry, like 'if God can do anything, then He can make something too heavy for Himself to lift' and so on.
Lets go back to the 3 year old and her/his ball:
1.) Mom loves me
2.) She would never let anything bad happen to me.
3.) That would include letting my ball get run over, because I love my new ball.
4.) If she did let my ball get run over, which is a bad thing, she doesn't love me.
5.) My ball did get run over, along with her spanking me for trying to save it. Therefore she does not love me!
When you break it down to that level, the assumptions are patently ridiculous to you and me as adults, but make perfect logical sense to the three year old. The three year old doesn't have all the facts, and couldn't understand the facts, even if you explained them.
So lets expand that back out to you and me and ol' Ebon there. If you have a God that is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, (why'd they forget that one?) and perfect in love, we'd have to say there's way more to understanding God than mom. We don't have all the facts, and even if God completely explained it to us, we wouldn't understand.
Although its not scriptural, there are some theological truths in "Bruce Almighty" with Jim Carrey that make a point. You should rent it.
In one sequence, Bruce as God's stand-in has to answer prayers. Its what God does, right? Well, answering everyone at once was just too much for him to handle. He had all the prayers set up as emails on a laptop. Finally, he sent a global reply to all those prayers with 'yes'. Well, everyone that prayed to win the lottery, did. Since everyone that prayed for it won, every winner got just a dollar.
That's my point here. Like the psalmist in 73, Bruce figured out how senseless and ignorant he was when faced with the enormity of who God really is.
I know these two things:
God loves you enough to keep me talking to you, even though I got a lot of other stuff I need to be doing.
God loves you enough to have Jesus come to earth and die for you. John 3:16. Check it out.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
So, have you asked Him to prove He exists yet?
So, have you asked Him to prove He exists yet?
Yes and no. I have prayed over the years for something that would prove the existence of a supernatural being but prayer is ludicrous for someone who doesn't believe.
Let me pose a situation:
I live in a 600 year old castle. It has been the home of many members of my family over the years. It was built by my ancestor who was very influential in this land. He blessed this home with prosperity and longevity. He also cursed all those who do not believe that he is still in charge. He demands that we bow to him and give him the honor he is due as the creator of this home. I know in my heart that he is still here, even though I have never actually seen him. I ask him often for help as I continue in my life. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't.
Now he has instructed me, out of love for you, to bring you into our family. So, I begin to testify to you about my wonderful ancestoral father. I tell you many stories and quote from the many books he left me and others in our family. You tell me you don't believe in such things so I ask you to come to my home and earnestly ask him to convince you of his existence and that he is only trying to help you to a better life and that furthermore after you die he will allow you to continue to live a perfect life here in our home with him.
It's absurd, right?
Interested, Again, this newset post simply cannot hold water. First off, as I asked you before and you as of yet have not replied, have you ever commited one act of Evil? If so you are Evil, theirfore the God you want to wipe out evil should kill you also. But since he does not, you claim he does not exist, I say he shows love for not doing it.
Then as I said before and again no reply from you as of yet, we as humans also allow evil to exist. If we know for 100 percent fact a person is guilty of murder and we allow him to live or even go free how are any different from the God you claim cannot exist for that reason?
Then just because we/you feel that Evil is not put forth in a shared equal manor does not mean God cannot exist. Again that also goes back to what I said, what if only two people existed, and they could not agree on if Murder or rape or lies is good or bad, How do two people decide what is fair or unfair if God did not lay out the laws first?
Then last but not least, I use the Bible to prove the Bible, you say that is not correct or illogical, so why do you use people who agree with you, how is that any different, at least with the Bible their is evidence to support it, but with the people you agree with, all you have is their mere opinions. Rick b
rick b said...
Interested, Again, this newset post simply cannot hold water. First off, as I asked you before and you as of yet have not replied, have you ever commited one act of Evil?
This is an irrelevant question because we are not talking about COMMITTING evil but EVIL itself. I am not an evil person. I do not set out to hurt people, in fact I do a lot to help people, but I am not perfect because, according to you, no one is perfect and I think you said no one is good.
If so you are Evil, theirfore the God you want to wipe out evil should kill you also. But since he does not, you claim he does not exist, I say he shows love for not doing it.
Rick, don't you see the futility of that argument? God does not kill evil because he shows love? Come on, that is really audacious.
Then as I said before and again no reply from you as of yet, we as humans also allow evil to exist. If we know for 100 percent fact a person is guilty of murder and we allow him to live or even go free how are any different from the God you claim cannot exist for that reason?
Again Rick, weak argument. There would be NO evil if there were an omnicient, omnipotent, BENEVOLENT god.
Again that also goes back to what I said, what if only two people existed, and they could not agree on if Murder or rape or lies is good or bad, How do two people decide what is fair or unfair if God did not lay out the laws first?
I believe that is exactly the way it happened, humans learning what is right and wrong through trial and error over time.
Then last but not least, I use the Bible to prove the Bible, you say that is not correct or illogical, so why do you use people who agree with you, how is that any different, at least with the Bible their is evidence to support it, but with the people you agree with, all you have is their mere opinions. Rick b
I quote other people, not as proof of anything but as starting points for my arguments.
As I have said in the past, I cannot prove that god does not exist because one cannot prove a negative.
Again Rick, weak argument. There would be NO evil if there were an omnicient, omnipotent, BENEVOLENT god.
How do you know that God does not allow Evil, Maybe He allows it for a reason? Your not all knowing so you cannot say that. Rick b
Yes and no?
Ms. Interested, it has to be one, or the other.
Although in the largest sense it could be considered a prayer since you'd be talking to God, I think you need to be way more direct than you have been...demanding even. That is to say, at this point, I wouldn't concern myself with being 'prayerful' in the traditional sense of the word.
Be direct.
Tell Him exactly what you think, even the fact don't you don't think He exists, or ever has.
Be honest about what you feel.
Demand proof.
Stand back!
This is an irrelevant question because we are not talking about COMMITTING evil but EVIL itself. I am not an evil person. I do not set out to hurt people, in fact I do a lot to help people, but I am not perfect because, according to you, no one is perfect and I think you said no one is good.
What is the Difference? If you commit an act of Evil you just put evil into the world. You can do good all you want and help as much people as you want, but does that mean you never commited an evil act? If at any point in time you had hatred in your heart that is evil.
I believe that is exactly the way it happened, humans learning what is right and wrong through trial and error over time.
Nice that you believe this, but still trial and error does not prove what is true or who is correct. Who decides and why? Why are you or the people who say murder and rape are wrong, the correct views? Rick b
Ms. Interested:
Didn't want to leave your 600 year old castle analogy without a response.
I'm not suggesting you come inside my 'house' at all. You can stand outside all day if you like. Likewise, you can stand outside of Faith.
If you offered earnestly that I demand proof directly from your ancestor as to the claims you're making, BEFORE I make up my mind, BEFORE I come in, what have I got to lose? He'll either provide it in a way I can believe, or not.
One thing I have found is that although believers have been accused of closed-mindedness because of their faith, I find a similar closed-mindedness with atheists. If you're going to count something as absurd, simply because its outside the scope of your immediate existence, you're leaving a lot of potential for discovery on the table...
The issue you pose with the castle and asking for evidence, I see it this way, some people will simply never believe no matter how much evidence you give.
Like I said, Jesus raised people from the dead, Judas was with Jesus and saw the many miracles, yet he never believed, The religious leaders wanted to kill one guy Jesus raised from the dead.
The Bible tells us about the flood of Noah, After Noah and his family started having Kids many denyed Christ, the Bible tells us even after the Rapture, (The returning of Jesus for His people) Many will still not believe.
Many people have claimed they died, went to hell and came back, yet they still do not believe. So I see no point in going back and forth, you simply might never believe until after you die and stand before God, but then it will be to late. Rick b
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