The following is a quote from slate in 2006
"Others, myself included, would not, under most imaginable circumstances, vote for a fanatic or fundamentalist-a Hassidic Jew who regards Rabbi Menachem Schneerson as the Messiah, a Christian literalist who thinks that the Earth is less than 7,000 years old, or a Scientologist who thinks it is haunted by the souls of space aliens sent by the evil lord Xenu. Such views are disqualifying because they're dogmatic, irrational, and absurd. By holding them, someone indicates a basic failure to think for himself or see the world as it is.
By the same token, I wouldn't vote for someone who truly believed in the founding whoppers of Mormonism. The LDS church holds that Joseph Smith, directed by the angel Moroni, unearthed a book of golden plates buried in a hillside in Western New York in 1827. The plates were inscribed in "reformed" Egyptian hieroglyphics-a nonexistent version of the ancient language that had yet to be decoded. If you don't know the story, it's worth spending some time with Fawn Brodie's wonderful biography No Man Knows My History. Smith was able to dictate his "translation" of the Book of Mormon first by looking through diamond-encrusted decoder glasses and then by burying his face in a hat with a brown rock at the bottom of it. He was an obvious con man. Romney has every right to believe in con men, but I want to know if he does, and if so, I don't want him running the country.
One may object that all religious beliefs are irrational-what's the difference between Smith's "seer stone" and the virgin birth or the parting of the Red Sea? But Mormonism is different because it is based on such a transparent and recent fraud. It's Scientology plus 125 years. Perhaps Christianity and Judaism are merely more venerable and poetic versions of the same. But a few eons makes a big difference. The world's greater religions have had time to splinter, moderate, and turn their myths into metaphor. The Church of Latter-day Saints is expanding rapidly and liberalizing in various ways, but it remains fundamentally an orthodox creed with no visible reform wing."
Jacob Weisberg http://www.slate.com/id/2155902/
There is much in this quote with which I agree. In fact, I’ll bet my supper that anyone reading this can find something with which to agree. However, I’d like to take in a bit further. I like others who have discussed this subject, do not agree that Christianity or Judaism get a free pass just because they have been around for a while. Just like Mormonism, they too teach intolerance and bigotry. And, like Mormonism, they do have some very strange beliefs. Let’s look at a few:
1. The earth was created in 7 days…Less than 6000 years ago
2. Snakes can talk
3. The Red sea parted long enough for the jews to escape but closed just in time to kill the enemies
4. A virgin can give birth to a half man, half god
5. A 12 - year old boy can convince a bunch of wise men in a temple to stop and listen to him
6. A man/god can walk on water
7. A man can turn water into wine and feed thousands with a few fishes and a loaf of bread
8. A man can cast out evil spirits and send them into a bunch of pigs
9. A dead person can rise after three days in a tomb
10. Three persons can be one person but still three persons in one,,,whew!
And, that is just a few.
I’m reading “The God Virus” by Darrel W. Ray and he compares religion to disease. When we had not knowledge of disease it was natural and normal to blame the supernatural. Humanity has progressed beyond that. We know that disease is caused by bacteria or virus and that many can be cured by medicines and treatments. But even those that do not have cures are not blamed on god; we continue to look for a cure.
I hope to live long enough to see the god virus cured.
17 comments:
Interested posted By holding them, someone indicates a basic failure to think for himself or see the world as it is.
Please explain who we are not thinking for ourselves? It seems to me if I simply believe what you tell me then I really am not thinking for my self I am only allowing you to spoon feed me.
I do not believe what I believe simply because someone told me it was true. I spent years as an atheist and doing my own thing, Way before I became a Christian I really researched and looked into the facts. And when I did it computes were not simply around every cornor and in every home.
I had to read books and ask people and go to the library and research the facts. I will address more of what you posted, but I would rather start in small bits.
Also could I not simply make the case about you or other Atheists that you guys simply do not think for your self and your beliefs are absurd.
You say, the Beliefs of Christians are absurd because they believe the red sea was parted and people walked across on dry land, How stupid is that.
But I could equally argue that you guys believe that Non-life arose from lightning striking a poisonous gas cloud and walla life arose from non life sustaining gas.
And before you say you dont believe that, let me remind you of two things.
1. You sorta laid out your belief, your beliefe was pretty much along the lines of, I'm not sure exactly how we got here, I'm just sure it was not God. So your not even positive of what you believe.
2. Many "Scientists" Teach the big bang which hold Non life brought forth Life, But since this cannot be proven it is simply held to by faith. And then it is taught as fact in schools. Rick b
"But I could equally argue that you guys believe that Non-life arose from lightning striking a poisonous gas cloud and walla life arose from non life sustaining gas."
You knew what I would say...I don't believe that. I do not have a firm set of beliefs but what I do have is a firm set of things I cannot believe.
I do not think that people who profess a religious belief really think for themselves because they go along with a book of stories written by a number of folks who are long gone. They listen to preachers who perpetuate the stories and offer no empirical evidence for what they say.
Rick as I have stated before your so called "proof" is your faith in your holy book. That kind of "proof" is not proof it is faith. I don't have it and can't get it.
I can't explain why you believe such as you do but you do so that is what it is. I don't try to feed you, spoon or otherwise. I simply state my thoughts and opinions.
Interested said I do not think that people who profess a religious belief really think for themselves because they go along with a book of stories written by a number of folks who are long gone.
I agree with you to a point, I agree that their are many people who simply believe what they are told, but not everyone across the board or me myself. I feel I do a pretty good Job stating what I believe and not simply stating like a parrot what I heard.
But on the other hand I believe many atheists simply believe what they are told and believe and could not defend their belief if their lives depended upon it. I have met many such people. Then I could make the case you fit that group, you admit your not entirely sure what you believe, yet your postive of what you do not believe.
I dont see you thinking for yourself in that case.
Interested said They listen to preachers who perpetuate the stories and offer no empirical evidence for what they say.
As I pointed out, their is more evidence for the Bible, we can show you lands like Israel, people like the Jews, dig up nations that once existed years ago, find artifacts and other things.
Yet we cannot prove life arose from non life, even the so called great minds of science were left dumbfounded in the movie by Ben Stein. The best they could do was say, I dont know how we Got here but I believe we just did, maybe it was from crystals on the back of some living creature. Wow thats great, Crystals.
You to some degree slam us for so called lack of evidence, yet you yourself cannot provide evidence and admit that you hope to live long enough to see it finally found. Thats faith, Just like I have faith, so do you. Rick b
Rick you have mentioned Ben Stein before, as if he were someone to quote...but take a look at this:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=six-things-ben-stein-doesnt-want-you-to-know
As far as Ben goes, it is not so much me quoting him, I was simply saying that it was the Movie he made. People can say what they want about the man, but the fact remains, on video people could not answer his questions. Many tried but gave stupid replies like, we came from crystals.
Now before you say, well someone simply edited the video to make it look that way, I would say, if that were true, then how come no major media has come forward stating that with evidence, and how come those so called great minds never put forth the rebuttal video to refute that happening?
I know not every one likes Ben, but again Ben really is not the issue, it's the questions he asked that could not be answered. Even the so called great minds cannot agree and sometimes contradict each other. Rick b
Hello interested, here is another thing I wanted to touch upon, your quote said
"Others, myself included, would not, under most imaginable circumstances, vote for a fanatic or fundamentalist-a Hassidic Jew who regards Rabbi Menachem Schneerson as the Messiah, a Christian literalist who thinks that the Earth is less than 7,000 years old, or a Scientologist who thinks it is haunted by the souls of space aliens sent by the evil lord Xenu. Such views are disqualifying because they're dogmatic, irrational, and absurd.
In reality everyone is Dogmatic even you and the people you would vote for. Here is the definition of dogmatic.
* characterized by assertion of unproved or unprovable principles
* of or pertaining to or characteristic of a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative
* relating to or involving dogma; "dogmatic writings"
* Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from. ...
That applies to you because it states it is not simply people that hold to a religion, Since atheists feel they are not religious Dogma does apply to the non religious.
But also it said code of beliefs accepted as authoritative
You have a code of beliefs and you will vote for someone who has similar views and beliefs. It's possible the few people running that stand any chance of winning do not hold your views so you vote for someone that holds your views while knowing they probably will not win, thats fine.
So despite what you say or think everyone has a dogmatic stance on some issue. Your is clear in the point that Christian are mind numb followers of a pastor or a church.
Then as I pointed out before, the founding fathers were religious, even though you want to deny that. Maybe not every one was, but the majority were. Go to http://www.wallbuilders.com/
Tons of evidence on the subject there. Rick b
* characterized by assertion of unproved or unprovable principles
* of or pertaining to or characteristic of a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative
I personally do not have a dogmatic doctrine or even a set of beliefs. I think that most atheist I know feel the same. The entire idea of being atheist is a-theist, as in the opposite of theist. Theist have god or gods to whom they surender authority, a-theist accept no such being.
PS: Did you read about your hero Ben?
Ben is not my hero, never has been and never will be.
You do have a set of beliefs, You believe I am wrong and you are correct, that is a belief. So yes you do have a belief. You believe the people you quote, you post a lot of quotes and sayings from people, you even do entire posts based upon something someone else said, Steve Benson is an example. You believe him or agree with him, so you are dogmatic even if you deny it. Rick b
No one is born an atheist; they learn NOT to believe, just as one learns to believe. People choose to become atheists as much as they choose to become Christians, unfortunately people usually disbelieve by default.
Atheism is natural to man; it is the most comfortable position. It is a reflection of his depraved state being engulfed in sin. The Bible states: the fool has said in his heart there is no God. Why? Because there is so much evidence to the contrary? No. It is more of a hopeful out look so that they will not be accountable to anyone or for anything they have done.
No matter how strenuously some may try to deny it, atheism is a belief system. It requires just as much faith (believing) to embrace that God does not exist, even more belief than a Christian would need to believe He does exist. Atheism has made a secular belief system (religion/philosophy) of having no God and the focus is usually nature. God's creation has replaced the one who made it. An atheist must assume that personal unique intricate living organisms arose from impersonal disorderly chaos. Something had to come from nothing. They have no explanation for a beginning of when or why. There is no purpose in what we see and call creation. Atheism assumes that the potential gives rise to the actual. Reality shows that something actualized the potential itself. All Potentials have an actualizer. Scrap iron from a junk yard does not form itself into an airplane or a building without some thing that is able to put it to order. All designs have a designer, and the universe has proven to be incredibly designed. Even the minutest organism is more complex than the space shuttle.
Mankind promotes the “Eat, drink and be merry” philosophy. After all tomorrow we all die and that's it, there is no afterlife- or so they hope.
Nicole
Interested:
I saw on the news that Oklahoma is getting nailed with ice, rain then, snow. I don't know your exact geographical location, but I hope you and your family are safe!
Nicole
Than you Nicole. Yes, we are right in the middle in OKC. Most of the city is shut down. Of course the schools are out and most offices are closed. I came home early yesterday and our plant and offices are closed today. So far I still have power but it is still coming down. We all all hoping it stops before it reaches the 14" level like Christmas Eve. Warm and safe...for now.
Glad to hear you're ok!
Say, are you ignoring my post from 1/28 or what? ;)
No not ignoring you just thinking about your statement:
"No one is born an atheist; they learn NOT to believe, just as one learns to believe. People choose to become atheists as much as they choose to become Christians, unfortunately people usually disbelieve by default."
...and
"Atheism is natural to man; it is the most comfortable position."
It seems that these two are opposed. I disagree that no one is born an atheist but I agree that atheism is natural. I want to look up something I remember and then I will have more to say on the subject.
mmm'kay!
BTW:
In the interest of full disclosure, the statements from my 1/28 post were gleaned from letusreason.org.
Nicole I do think that we are born atheist, just as we are born a clean slate as far as language and gesture is concerned. If a child is born in Ireland and taken to China to grow up in a Chinese family he will speak perfect Chinese, without an accent. If he is take to Japan and raised by Japanese parents, he will bow when meeting someone. Neither of those things would occur if he remained in Ireland but as a baby he is a clean slate and can be written upon by his parents.
If you, a Christian had a child and then gave it to me to raise from birth, would he still believe in a god or Christian doctrine? I think not.
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