-Alan Bombria (a friend)
"Damnation is the start of your morality, destruction is its purpose, means and end. Your code begins by damning man as evil, then demands that he ...practice a good which it defines as impossible for him to practice. It demands, as his first proof of virtue, that he accepts his own depravity without proof. It demands that he start, not with a standard of value, but with a standard of evil, which is himself, by means of which he is then to define the good: the good is that which he is not...
We are told from birth that we are sinners and evil doers. We are also told that we are made in the image of god. We are told we have free will and that we must choose to accept Jesus in order to get rid of the sin we got when we were created in god’s image.
“The name of this monstrous absurdity is Original Sin. A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man's sin, a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of morality. To hold man's nature as his sin is a mockery of nature. To punish him for a crime he committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. To hold him guilty in a matter where no innocence exists is a mockery of reason. To destroy morality, nature, justice and reason by means of a single concept is a feat of evil hardly to be matched. Yet that is the root of your code."
This is an excerpt from John Galt's speech in the novel Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, and it deals with the Christian notion of original sin.
The longer version can be found here
9 comments:
It's fine that you choose to deny Original sin, Everyone wants to think we are pretty good, or born good and choose to do bad.
But no one seems to ever answer the question of, Why do kids lie from birth and we only teach kids to lie once they get to college? From birth we try are hardest to teach kids to be honest and tell the truth. You said you have kids, you mean they always told the truth? even when you caught them dead in the act?
You mean, I did not do it, it was not me, and other sayings were never uttered by your kids? You see one child hit another, why did you do that? They reply, I did not do that, yes you did I saw you, nope, was not me, So they are now calling you a liar. You mean that never happened. wow.
What about the question I posed before, if we are basically good as hamdamit claimed, then the Stanford prison experiment basically went to hell after only 6 days. They were hoping for 12 days, and the people posing as guards did not seem to "do the right thing" as was claimed by Hamdamit. You would think the guards would want to be nice to a bunch of fake prisoners who really did nothing more than sign up, and the guards were being paid to behave. Rick
Rick b said...
"It's fine that you choose to deny Original sin, Everyone wants to think we are pretty good, or born good and choose to do bad."
Rather than deny Original sin, I am trying to examine its reasonableness.
"You said you have kids, you mean they always told the truth?"
I think children lie because they can. I’ve read that the more intelligent the child the more he/she lies. They lie because it is difficult to talk about some subjects, to avoid punishments or to avoid responsibility. There is some good information on this at this site http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/02/11/why-do-kids-lie/
"You mean, I did not do it... other sayings were never uttered by your kids? ... I did not do that, yes you did I saw you, nope, was not me, So they are now calling you a liar. You mean that never happened. wow."
No of course not. My children were normal kids and they did lie, like all kids, like all people.
Here's a quote from the above site:
"So who’s to blame? Well the parents of course!!
Consider how we expect a child to act when he opens a gift he doesn’t like. We instruct him to swallow all his honest reactions and put on a polite smile. Talwar runs an experiment where children play games to win a present, but when they finally receive the present, it’s a lousy bar of soap. After giving the kids a moment to overcome the shock, a researcher asks them how they like it. About a quarter of preschoolers can lie that they like the gift—by elementary school, about half. Telling this lie makes them extremely uncomfortable, especially when pressed to offer a few reasons why they like the bar of soap. Kids who shouted with glee when they won the Peeking Game suddenly mumble quietly and fidget."
"What about the question I posed before, if we are basically good as hamdamit claimed, then the Stanford prison experiment basically went to hell after only 6 days. They were hoping for 12 days, and the people posing as guards did not seem to "do the right thing" as was claimed by Hamdamit. You would think the guards would want to be nice to a bunch of fake prisoners who really did nothing more than sign up, and the guards were being paid to behave. Rick"
There was a follow up study in the UK that seems to affirm the Stanford study.
The SPE is a study of what happens when a powerful authority figure (Zimbardo) imposes tyranny. Our study tells the more complex story of what happens when you leave people to deal with inequality on their own, and of how they can end up creating tyranny for themselves.
Over time, however, Zimbardo’s tone seems to have changed a little. In a recent exchange of messages, he acknowledged that it is important that students are exposed to both sides of the debate between himself and ourselves.
"By looking in detail at the SPE, at our study, at Zimbardo’s criticisms, and at our rejoinder to them, you can reflect on the strengths and weaknesses of our different positions, and decide for yourself who provides a better analysis of the social psychology of tyranny and resistance.
http://www.bbcprisonstudy.org/index.php
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/12/19
/milgram.experiment.obedience/#cnnSTCText
It seems to me that it is more a question of authority than any other part. We begin as children being told that there is a god watching over us at all times. We are told that the final authority will be laid to bare when we die. We are told that if we are good we will be rewarded and if we are bad we will be punished. I see both of these studies as a most definite comment on human frailty in regard to authority. I don't see them as being about evil action. When people bow to authority, even when they know it is wrong, it is a sad recognition of how we are oppressed by believing that some supernatural being who sees all and demands worship is in charge.
Humans are a product of evolution, evolution of being and psycology. When some inovation or mutation works to our advantage, that part begins to dominate, biologically and psychologically.
Interested said I think children lie because they can. I’ve read that the more intelligent the child the more he/she lies. They lie because it is difficult to talk about some subjects, to avoid punishments or to avoid responsibility. There is some good information on this at this site http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/02/11/why-do-kids-lie/
Here are two problems I have with this.
1. We/you are trying to find ways to rationalize lying and to justify it, instead of simply saying, we are born liars.
2. Why do kids lie from Birth and lie even before they understand or know that they might be punished for lying?
Interested01 said
"So who’s to blame? Well the parents of course!!
You mean since my kids lie right from birth It's my fault? I agree, since it is original sin that is passed down.
"You mean since my kids lie right from birth It's my fault? I agree, since it is original sin that is passed down."
When we have children we are always teaching, every moment, every day. Kids do what we do; they say what we say. So I guess in a way one could call that "original sin" since we are creating such as we raise our kids.
Kids lie and manipulate before they ever learn it from us. Then the vast majority of people might lie or do things they dont want their kids to do, but still people try their best to not do it around the kids.
So kids are born doing this, they dont learn it from us, Kids start by saying Mine, Mine. They dont share, we need to teach them to share. They do not learn, Mine, Mine from the parents. They know this from birth.
Happy Thanksgiving Interested.
Hope all is well.
Rick...and to you and your family a very Happy Thanksgiving Day. I know you will eat well!;0)
I cooked, and we did eat well.
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