I am posting this as a new thread to avoid the long length of the previous topic.
February 14, 2010 12:56 AM
Rick b said...
Hello Interested, well as I said before I am kinda busy with School and work, plus a family of five. Anyway I will cut and paste a section from the blog you sent me to and talk about it in the next section below, other wise I would run out of my word limit.
Let’s take a look at a passage all Christian’s should be familiar with. It is just 4 small verses Mark 10:17-21. In the NIV these verses are titled the rich young man
17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” 18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’” 20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.” 21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
Ok, seems clear enough. The question asked Jesus was how do I get eternal life. The answer Jesus gave was follow the commandments including the one you think is hard, giving charity isn’t exactly a commandment but close enough. Please keep in mind that this was a young man. Now let’s fast forward a few years when this rich young man squandered all his money and went out into the world and got himself a job. Wasn’t a great job but the benefits were that he could beat prisoners whenever he felt like. He was a jailer, as luck would have it [not luck, my version of events] he was the jailer where Paul and Silas were jailed. Let’s take a look at Acts 16:30-31.
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
February 17, 2010 8:40 AM
Rick b said...
First off the Blog author implies that the Rich young man speaking to Jesus and the Jailer were the same person. Can you or anyone show me from the Bible where it states this? Asking where this is stated is called evidence, It's not in the Bible, you guys are assuming this is the case, your assuming it is the same person.
Since your simply assuming you then believe this poses a contradiction since Jesus told him to sell all, and Paul says Believe.
This is another case of Atheists not having a clue of what the Bible says and then saying it is filled with problems.
Maybe if you guys were a little more honest I would not give you a hard time.
Yes Jesus did tell that man to sell all, But he was only speaking to THAT MAN, Jesus Did not say, everyone who hears my voice or reads this letter sell all, He simply said it to that one man.
I really find it funny how you guys trash the Bible, but then when I point out your flaws you guys ignore what I say or have no honest feed back. Why is that?
I will post more as I get time. Rick b
30 comments:
Okay, here is my question:
Was Paul a follower of Christ? If so why would he teach differently than Jesus?
Next, you state that the advice given to the young man was for him only...does that mean that there are different rules for each person?
I will give more detail later since I'm Busy, But keeping it simple let me say this. Paul was not a follower of Jesus in the sense that he followed Jesus during his life time like the apostles did. Paul went by the name Saul and he was a persecutor of the people that followed God/Jesus.
Saul was confronted by God while heading into town, God changed Saul's name to Paul and Paul became a follower of God.
When Jesus spoke to the Rich man, Do you think God can speak to one person and do or say what he wants? It's like a school teacher speaking to one student, can that teacher say one thing to one student but say something else to the rest of the class?
Also, The Rich man told Jesus, I'm doing this, this and this, Many would teach the guy lied to Jesus because no person can really keep all the commandments perfectly, But no place did Jesus say to the guy, your lying, you cannot be perfect. So we can assume that since Jesus did not rebuke the young man, either Jesus did not want to embarrass him, or he was telling the truth.
Either way, Jesus was only speaking to that man. We know from Scripture also that Jesus was only speaking to that man because no where else in the Bible do we read Jesus making a statement to large groups of people to sell everything they own. Also if you read in the Book of acts you will read a story about how the church came together to sell stuff they owned and were going to use the money to help support the local believers. Yet a husband and wife sold some of the stuff they owned but acted like they sold everything they owned.
They were rebuked, and told while you owned the stuff was it not YOURS TO DO WHAT YOU WANT WITH IT. Then they were told that they really lied to God not man, and they dropped dead.
Point is, the stuff we own is ours and we can keep it or sell it if we want. Then using common sense, if we sold everything we owned we would not have a car to get to work in, or a house to live in or plates to eat food on. The bigger point of the story of the rich man is this, The man was making his wealth his God.
As a rich person he figures he has no need for GOD since he has so much wealth, so God does not care if we are rich, many followers of God in the OT were wealthy beyond belief. If you actually read the Bible you would see these problems really are not problems, but as I said before you just look for people that think they found a problem in the Bible then you send me to it. I simply point out these guys are complete liars since they like you only give one side or snippets of verses and really dont look for the truth. Rick b
So Paul was not a follower of Christ?
Paul was, But He became one after the Death of Jesus, before that he was not, he was most likely watching Jesus be crucified.
Paul was not a follower of Jesus during the earthly ministry of Jesus. Rick b
So we can assume that when he answered “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
he was a follower of Christ. I think it is confusing.
Personally I think it is a bit silly to argue this point but I do see why some would find it confusing.
I see no confusion. So how does it matter if he was a follower before or after?
I was not a believer when Jesus walked the earth, I came a believer after He died, how does that make a difference? Rick b
The confusion is on what it takes to be saved. That was the original premis. Jesus teaching one thing and Paul another. So...let's bury that one.
Would you please comment on why you feel that Jesus was speaking only to the one person and if, as I asked earlier, there are differing rules for different followers?
I see your point, Interested, and actually, it's a good point. First, the very brief answer: Paul and Jesus were not teaching different ways to be saved. And yes, in a sense, Jesus was telling the rich young ruler something that was for him only. But, since I know these brief answers will make no sense to you, I must further explain.
The young man's primary problem was his wealth, and that's why Jesus' prescription was to get rid of it. That does not mean that everyone is to sell everything they have and give it to the poor. In that sense, Jesus' command was not meant for everyone.
Can a person get to Heaven by obeying the Ten Commandments? Theoretically, yes. The problem is that not one single person on this earth has kept all ten Commandments every second of his or her life. And this is exactly what Jesus was trying to show the rich young ruler. The young man made the assumption that he had not broken any of the Ten Commandments, and Jesus was showing this young man that he hadn't even kept the first commandment:
"And God spoke all these words:
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:1-3)
Jesus talked with the rich young ruler using the Ten Commandments as the starting point in a discussion of "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And with those commandments He was able to show the man his self-righteousness. The rich young ruler could not even get past the first commandment: He did have another god before the God of the universe, and it was his money.
The rich man was thinking in terms of earning righteousness to merit eternal life, but, just two verses before this, Jesus taught that it was a gift to be received:
"I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." (Mark 10:15)
The rich man was thinking in terms of righteousness by works. Jesus had to correct this misunderstanding first before answering the question more fully. For the rich man, keeping the law was a matter of external conformity. The fact that the law also required inner obedience, which no one can fully satisfy, apparently escaped that rich young man completely. And in fact, Paul speaks of having had a similar outlook before he got saved:
"...as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless." (Philippians 3:6)
So, because of the fact that none of us can keep the Ten Commandments perfectly (both outwardly and inwardly), that is why we need a Savior.
Jeff said: "The young man's primary problem was his wealth, and that's why Jesus' prescription was to get rid of it. That does not mean that everyone is to sell everything they have and give it to the poor. In that sense, Jesus' command was not meant for everyone"
but how do you know that? That has to be speculation on your part because it is not spelled out in the text.
Rick said, "It's like a school teacher speaking to one student, can that teacher say one thing to one student but say something else to the rest of the class?"
NO. The rules must be the same for all students. A teacher cannot have multiple sets of rules in one classroom; it would never work.
Interested said NO. The rules must be the same for all students. A teacher cannot have multiple sets of rules in one classroom; it would never work.
A better way of wording it is, It's not a set of rules that are different for each person, It's a matter of the heart.
For that man, it was his wealth, you dont agree with us saying it was his wealth, you say it's not spelled out. But it is, Read the Bible, for the most part there are many example is the Bible of Rich people walking away from God or seeing no need for Him.
While it is the poor who cry out to him. Real life examples, Many People, Maybe not you, but I'm sure you have heard stories, of people on there death bed or in great danger for there life, they cry out to God, God save me. But when it's all done and over with, Danger averted they no longer want anything to due with God.
The problem is, regauardless of whether you believe the Bible or not, since you wont read it how can you know if what we say is in it or not. I dont maind sharing passages with you, but on the other hand, The replys I keep getting are, That makes no sense, or are you sure.
The best thing you could do, but I suspect you wont, is simply read the Bible. The questions are answerd, that is why I say the whole lot of athiests are liars and dectiful. I know you hate that, but if your honest you would have to agree. How can you claim a book that you never read is full of problems?
Your buddies can point out so called problems, but even then after your fellow athiets point out problems, Those problems can be answerwed. But then all you do is look for more. Rick b
Rick when you say it is a matter of the heart...well that's the problem. Matters of the heart are not definable. What matters to your heart is different that what matters to my heart.
As I have told you in the past I HAVE read and continue to read the bible, as do many of my "atheist friends". The site I mentioned is by a bible scholar...he not only reads it but studies it. Although I am no scholar, I do study many things biblical, however, I read without the "heart" only with the mind and my sense of reason.
When I said it is a matter of the heart, I meant that Jesus was addressing the young rich ruler and the matter of his heart, that matter was his wealth.
Jesus even goes onto say in other places that the Rich will have a harder time entering heaven than a camel going through the eye of a needle.
Jesus even tells stories about rich people hording wealth and not sharing with the poor. Jesus was Poor, He was born in a barn and said to have no place to even lay His head.
Again, Each person is different in what keeps them from Coming to God, God/Jesus does not have a different set of rules for each person, rather he address things that will keep that person from Coming to know Him.
Like Me, I do not have a problem with Porn, I do not seek it out or view it, so God is not going to say to me, Rick, Set aside your porn and follow me.The BIBLE is very clear that anyone who follows the way of sexual imorality cannot enter heaven.
I know some Christians who can Drink and they do not abuse it, So God will not speak to them and say, do not drink. Yet I have friends that struggle with booze to the point they cannot even eat a brat that was cooked in beer.
Everyone is different on what stumbles them.
Then you athiest friends who read the Bible, That great, but the guy you quote, he's no bible scholar, I honestly dont believe he even believe the Bible, He might read it, But I dont believe he knows it. Not from what I read. Rick b
Why are these cowards afraid to come to the source. Then again, if all they want to do is preach they might as well stay away.
Well I posted on the clueless atheist blog. Rick b
Ok interested, I have a few moments to add more. You claim Jesus and Paul are contradicting themselves, you say you read the Bible, I say if you really do read it, you either read so few pages at a time you forget what you read, or your simply glancing for certain things and ignoring the rest.
First off, when Jesus was speaking to the Rich young ruler, that guy made Money His god, Jesus was basically telling him to sell all his stuff, that way the guy could only focus on Jesus.
Paul said Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Did you know that Jesus actually made that claim before Paul did? Bet you did not know that. So If Jesus really did say that, then Paul says it later are they contradicting themselves? No they are not.
Now I bet your thinking show me where it says that, Glad you asked because I will show you. Read,
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Now since you have a bible you can go to the gospel of John Chapter 6 and read the entire chapter for the full context, But here is a brief breakdown of the story.
The religious leaders are coming to Jesus wanting to know what is the work they they must do to be saved. People think we can do certain works to be saved, but We cannot save ourselves. So Jesus told them that the only work that we can do to be saved is to believe on the one whom the father sent.
Who did the father send? He sent Jesus, What Did Jesus say, Believe in Him and we will be saved. What Did Paul say, Believe in Jesus and we will be saved. Where is the contradiction in that?
Then if you say, well Jesus gave ten commandments what about about those, Then I will say, Glad you asked, Because you need to go back again and read your Bible. A lawyer came to Jesus and said, which commandment is the greatest?
Jesus said, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, the second one is, Love thy neighbor as yourself, in these TWO COMMANDMENTS the laws are fulfilled.
So According to Jesus, if I simply Love Him and love my neighbor then I am fully fulfilling the ten commandments. Now Again I know you will ask, How am I keeping the law by doing that, Again I am so glad you asked me.
Because If I really love God with all my heart, I will not want to kill my neighbor, or sleep with his wife, or trying breaking into his house, or do any form of evil.
Now let me ask you this, How can an atheist be saved if he/she does not believe in God? You cannot love a God if you deny they exist. You guys keep claiming religion, I have told you over and over I hate religion, My relationship does not allow for religion since my God also hates religion. Rick b
Nice to see you still can't read. Is mommy gonna teach you how?
I know how to read, and you know how to dodge questions and lie to people. Rick b
Yes, you said I wrote that god created hell for fun, you just contradicted yourself. I am putting you on notice that my blog has a copyright. If your comment does not have my article deleted by 4:30 PM tomorrow, A DMCA letter is getting sent to blogspot.
Rick stay off my blog.
Yikes! I go away on vacation and you people can't play nicely?
...so what's the next topic?
Nicole
Jeff said: "The young man's primary problem was his wealth, and that's why Jesus' prescription was to get rid of it. That does not mean that everyone is to sell everything they have and give it to the poor. In that sense, Jesus' command was not meant for everyone"
but how do you know that? That has to be speculation on your part because it is not spelled out in the text.
Actually, the fact that the primary problem of the rich young ruler was his wealth is spelled out in the text:
"When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Luke 18:23-24)
Jesus had taught his disciples about the importance of faithfulness with regard to money: "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money" (Luke 16:13).
The Bible says something similar elsewhere: "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs" (1 Timothy 6:10).
The young man's question betrays both his superficial understanding of gaining eternal life, and his superficial understanding of a person's ability to do good deeds that are pure, unmixed by ulterior motives. Even the Old Testament says that our works are not enough to save us: "all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6)
There was another conversation Jesus has with an earnest Jewish ruler, Nicodemus:
"Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, 'Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.'
"In reply Jesus declared, 'I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.' " (John 3:1-3)
(Being "born again" is the same thing as turning your life over to Jesus Christ, as in Acts 16:31.)
Notice that the ruler greets Jesus with gracious praise. Jesus' response, though, is not the expected gracious reply, but seemingly off-the-wall, jarring, and unanticipated. Just as with the rich young ruler, there is a lack of spiritual understanding on Nicodemus' part.
In both cases, these men are hungry for spiritual guidance. But they need to abandon some dangerous presuppositions about their state before God, before they are able to understand any further truth.
The rich young ruler's response (to following the commandments) is: "All these I have kept since I was a boy." The rabbis held that the law could indeed be kept in its entirety. This might be true if you were defining the commandments as the Pharisees did, but the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:17-48) shows that Jesus' view of keeping these commandments goes far beyond the legalistic interpretations of his time. For example, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus relates murder to its root in anger, and adultery to its root in lust.
But disposing of wealth was not all that Jesus asked the man to do.
"When Jesus heard this, he said to him, 'You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.' " (18:22)
The word "follow" is the characteristic word of discipleship, Greek 'akoloutheo,' to follow someone as a disciple. So, even with the rich young ruler, Jesus was telling him to follow him (Jesus) and be his disciple. So, this basically means the same thing as "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved," as well as being "born again."
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