Here are my thoughts on the Video. The whole Miracle thing is really stupid, No one alive today was alive 2000 years ago, so we do not know what Jesus or the Virgin Mary looks like, Also The Virgin Mary is no longer a virgin, After the Virgin Birth she went onto have other Kids, so she cannot be a virgin any longer.
People are just down right stupid, But the thinking Atheist has issues of there own. Like I said in the last Topic, Atheist scientists were the ones to make Evolution Hoaxes and they were exposed as such, I guess it Shows no one is perfect and both sides can lie or be mis-lead. And for the record I do not believe in the Shroud of Turin, I am guessing it is a hoax, never once believed it was a real burned imprint of Jesus. Rick b
Interested, I'm not a stupid guy just because I believe in Creation. I see you the same way you see me, I see you as a brain dead follower of people you simply believe by faith. You admit you cannot defend your believe and simply rely on other to hope they are correct.
The fact that hoaxs were expoused only shows that some in your little circle are moral and refuse to lie. But then again that goes the same for me, I wont lie to defend what I believe. If people are doing stupid stuff I will call bull on the stupid stuff. Rick b
To say that atheism requires faith is as dim-witted as saying that disbelief in pixies or leprechauns takes faith. Even if Einstein himself told me there was an elf on my shoulder, I would still ask for proof and I wouldn’t be wrong to ask. – Geoff Mather
atheism requires faith because you believe by faith. You said you are not 100 percent sure of what you believe, so if your not 100 percent sure then that means you need faith to believe. You also have faith because much of what you believe cannot be proven by science and cannot be tested by science.
Science is something you cling to and base a lot of your belief's upon, you keep bringing up science and talking about how great it is, but since science cannot prove what you believe it again boils down to faith. Rick b
That video is nothing more than a blatant attack on God, and an attempt to ridicule God and all who believe in God.
Those people who actually believe that images of Mary or Jesus in a piece of toast, on the side of a building, or wherever, are a miracle from God are, to my knowledge, usually Catholics who are not true born-again Christians, but who are merely superstitious (and I'm not saying that all Catholics are not true born-again Christians, but as far as I know, only a very few are, my own Aunt apparently being one of them as far as I can tell...neither can I fairly say that all Catholics are so superstitious that they would worship or honor a piece of toast, or consider it something divine). To include them among true believers is, at least for the most part, a false assumption. A true born-again Christian would more than likely have the spiritual discernment to recognize things that are merely coincidence...though I do accept the possibility that there may be some true Christians who do not have such discernment.
I looked over the blog site, I will reply about it later, but here are some thoughts that pertain to you.
I find it really funny again how you have said before those of us who believe in the Bible do not really think for ourselves and just blindly believe the pastors of the churchs.
Yet every time I challenge you and say you are the same way and do not think for your self since you cannot defend what you believe or you admit your not sure of what you believe, the only thing your 100 percent sure of is that I am wrong.
Every time this happens you always send me to video's, blog's, or websites of people who claim the Bible is wrong and people who think they know what they are talking about. So I just find it funny how your not thinking but having others think for you and your not defending what you believe but attacking what I believe. My thoughts on the blog later. Rick b
Regarding the woman who discovered the image of the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich, although the article I found said that she was Baptist, and not Catholic, she was obviously very superstitious, and the fact that she was a dollmaker may have had something to do with her vivid imagination:
""It scared me half to death," said Duyser, a housewife and amateur doll maker.
Duyser told friends and neighbors, and the story spread throughout metro Miami. She kept the sandwich in a small plastic container and padded it with cotton.
"All those years, whenever I'd get real down, I'd go in and say things to her and make sure she was still there," Duyser said. "Sometimes my husband would come in and say, 'What is this lady trying to say to us, this Virgin Mary?' And I'd say, 'I don't know, honey, unless she wants us to put her out there and show the whole world.'"
Duyser said the past decade has been blessed because of the sandwich. She won $70,000 at a Florida Indian casino and attributes it to the sandwich.
As you might expect, the reaction from most people (including Catholics) has been justifiably skeptical..."
Attributing winning money in a casino to a sandwich proves that she is superstitious, and raises heavy doubts that she is a true Christian at all. Just because she attends a Baptist church does not mean she is truly a Christian. I also find it interesting that even Catholics are dubious of the toast being of a miraculous nature.
" I also find it interesting that even Catholics are dubious of the toast being of a miraculous nature" I think all sane people would be dubious but then the bible has some pretty hard to believe stories as well, and millions swear by it.
I think all sane people would be dubious but then the bible has some pretty hard to believe stories as well, and millions swear by it.
And the Bible has been tested again and again and again for accuracy, by biblical scholars and by many who have attacked it, as well as by various fields such as archaeology, textual criticism, etc., and has been shown to be accurate and reliable.
Let's see; you believe that a man was born of a virgin, walked on water and rose from the dead after three days...sounds pretty superstitious to me.
You are completely incorrect in your assumption. Superstition is a credulous belief or notion, not based on reason, knowledge, or experience. My belief in the Bible is based on all three: reason, knowledge and experience. As far as experience, no, I don't mean that I was born of a virgin or have ever walked on water or have ever risen from the dead. But I have experienced miracles in my own life, and have witnessed miracles in the lives of some of my family members and friends, and have read about many others. The greatest miracle in my life being that I was transformed.
Interested, I have a challenge for you: go through the entire Bible in a detailed analysis and prove that the miracles in it are false. Do a detailed study of it to prove that the Bible is false. Take months or years to do it, but do a thorough job. I don't mean just pick out verses or stories. I mean, do a detailed critical analysis of it. Don't rely on things that others tell you; find out for yourself.
Credulous | Definition of Credulous at Dictionary.com:1. willing to believe or trust too readily, esp. without proper or adequate evidence; gullible. 2. marked by or arising from credulity: a credulous rumor. ... Yep, I'd say that about says it.
Abraham Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address Abraham Lincoln - 03/04/1865
Fellow-Countrymen:
At this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first. Then, a statement somewhat in detail of a course to be pursued seemed fitting and proper. Now, at the expiration of four years, during which public declarations have been constantly called forth on every point and phase of the great contest which still absorbs the attention and engrosses the energies of the nation, little that is new could be presented. The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself, and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured.
On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, insurgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war--seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came.
One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease.
Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
This is a quote from Abraham Lincoln. He was a believer in Jesus Christ. He believed in the Bible. That video is full of lies and misrepresentations. I am disappointed that you would do this. Wow... that makes me very sad. I hoped you were above this kind of thing. Shelli
Sheli you may be right about Abe Lincoln but there are many who disagree with you. Most of the early presidents were deist not Christian. It seems from what we know that Lincoln never went to church and had less than stellar feelings about Christianity. A quote from http://www.adherents.com/people/pl/Abraham_Lincoln.html states that "Lincoln never joined a church nor ever made a clear profession of standard Christian beliefs." Furthermore,your statement " I hoped you were above this kind of thing." astounds me! What on earth are you thinking? What kind of thing?
Interested, you said people do not agree with you on Abe, did you ever think that maybe it's more a matter of people did not agree with Abe.
Many People like to the the founders were not Christians, Tell me after reading these quotes if you think these men were believers or not. If they are or were nor believers then you could have fooled me.
Share this Article The Founders As Christians 04/2006 (Note: this is a representative list only, there are many other quotes that could be listed) Samuel Adams Father of the American Revolution, Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I . . . recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.
Will of Samuel Adams Charles Carroll Signer of the Declaration of Independence
On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.
From an autographed letter in our possession written by Charles Carroll to Charles W. Wharton, Esq., on September 27, 1825, from Doughoragen, Maryland. William Cushing First Associate Justice Appointed by George Washington to the Supreme Court
Sensible of my mortality, but being of sound mind, after recommending my soul to Almighty God through the merits of my Redeemer and my body to the earth . . .
Will of William Cushing John Dickinson Signer of the Constitution
Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.
Will of John Dickinson John Hancock Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I John Hancock, . . . being advanced in years and being of perfect mind and memory-thanks be given to God-therefore calling to mind the mortality of my body and knowing it is appointed for all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make and ordain this my last will and testament…Principally and first of all, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of God that gave it: and my body I recommend to the earth . . . nothing doubting but at the general resurrection I shall receive the same again by the mercy and power of God. . .
Will of John Hancock Patrick Henry Governor of Virginia, Patriot
This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.
Will of Patrick Henry John Jay First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court
Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved son. He has been pleased to bless me with excellent parents, with a virtuous wife, and with worthy children. His protection has companied me through many eventful years, faithfully employed in the service of my country; His providence has not only conducted me to this tranquil situation but also given me abundant reason to be contented and thankful. Blessed be His holy name!
Will of John Jay Daniel St. Thomas Jenifer Signer of the Constitution
In the name of God, Amen. I, Daniel of Saint Thomas Jenifer . . . of dispossing mind and memory, commend my soul to my blessed Redeemer. . .
Will of Daniel St. Thomas Jenifer Henry Knox Revolutionary War General, Secretary of War
First, I think it proper to express my unshaken opinion of the immortality of my soul or mind; and to dedicate and devote the same to the supreme head of the Universe – to that great and tremendous Jehovah, – Who created the universal frame of nature, worlds, and systems in number infinite . . . To this awfully sublime Being do I resign my spirit with unlimited confidence of His mercy and protection . . .
Will of Henry Knox John Langdon Signer of the Constitution
In the name of God, Amen. I, John Langdon, . . . considering the uncertainty of life and that it is appointed unto all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make, ordain and publish this my last will and testament in manner following, that is to say-First: I commend my soul to the infinite mercies of God in Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of the Father, who died and rose again that He might be the Lord of the dead and of the living . . . professing to believe and hope in the joyful Scripture doctrine of a resurrection to eternal life . . .
Will of John Langdon John Morton Signer of the Declaration of Independence
With an awful reverence to the great Almighty God, Creator of all mankind, I, John Morton . . . being sick and weak in body but of sound mind and memory-thanks be given to Almighty God for the same, for all His mercies and favors-and considering the certainty of death and the uncertainty of the times thereof, do, for the settling of such temporal estate as it hath pleased God to bless me with in this life . . .
Will of John Morton Robert Treat Paine Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I desire to bless and praise the name of God most high for appointing me my birth in a land of Gospel Light where the glorious tidings of a Savior and of pardon and salvation through Him have been continually sounding in mine ears.
Robert Treat Paine, The Papers of Robert Treat Paine, Stephen Riley and Edward Hanson, editors (Boston: Massachusetts Historical Society, 1992), Vol. I, p. 48, March/April, 1749.
[W]hen I consider that this instrument contemplates my departure from this life and all earthly enjoyments and my entrance on another state of existence, I am constrained to express my adoration of the Supreme Being, the Author of my existence, in full belief of his providential goodness and his forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state, acknowledging with grateful remembrance the happiness I have enjoyed in my passage through a long life. . .
Will of Robert Treat Paine Charles Cotesworth Pinckney Signer of the Constitution
To the eternal, immutable, and only true God be all honor and glory, now and forever, Amen!. . .
Will of Charles Cotesworth Pinckney Rufus Putnam Revolutionary War General, First Surveyor General of the United States
[F]irst, I give my soul to a holy, sovereign God Who gave it in humble hope of a blessed immortality through the atonement and righteousness of Jesus Christ and the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit. My body I commit to the earth to be buried in a decent Christian manner. I fully believe that this body shall, by the mighty power of God, be raised to life at the last day; 'for this corruptable (sic) must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality.' [I Corinthians 15:53]
Will of Rufus Putnam Benjamin Rush Signer of the Declaration of Independence
My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!
Benjamin Rush, The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, George Corner, editor (Princeton: Princeton University Press for the American Philosophical Society, 1948), p. 166, Travels Through Life, An Account of Sundry Incidents & Events in the Life of Benjamin Rush. Roger Sherman Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Signer of the Constitution
I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. . . . that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God. . . . that God did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer.
Lewis Henry Boutell, The Life of Roger Sherman (Chicago: A. C. McClurg and Company, 1896), pp. 272-273. Richard Stockton Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I think it proper here not only to subscribe to the entire belief of the great and leading doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the Being of God, the universal defection and depravity of human nature, the divinity of the person and the completeness of the redemption purchased by the blessed Savior, the necessity of the operations of the Divine Spirit, of Divine Faith, accompanied with an habitual virtuous life, and the universality of the divine Providence, but also . . . that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom; that the way of life held up in the Christian system is calculated for the most complete happiness that can be enjoyed in this mortal state; that all occasions of vice and immorality is injurious either immediately or consequentially, even in this life; that as Almighty God hath not been pleased in the Holy Scriptures to prescribe any precise mode in which He is to be publicly worshiped, all contention about it generally arises from want of knowledge or want of virtue.
Will of Richard Stockton Jonathan Trumbull Sr. Governor of Connecticut, Patriot
Principally and first of all, I bequeath my soul to God the Creator and Giver thereof, and body to the Earth . . . nothing doubting but that I shall receive the same again at the General Resurrection thro the power of Almighty God; believing and hoping for eternal life thro the merits of my dear, exalted Redeemer Jesus Christ.
Will of Jonathan Trumbull John Witherspoon Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I entreat you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for there is no salvation in any other [Acts 4:12]. . . . [I]f you are not reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, if you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish.
John Witherspoon, The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), Vol. V, pp. 276, 278, The Absolute Necessity of Salvation Through Christ, January 2, 1758.
All these quotes were taken from the web site I told you about twice before, www.wallbuilders.org
Rick, I don't doubt your quotes but there is one thing that we both know: any politician now or in the past who did not profess a belief in god would be ridden out of town on a rail. I look for the day when a person can run for office based entirely on his politics and not his religion.
Interested said any politician now or in the past who did not profess a belief in god would be ridden out of town on a rail.
Why do you say this as if you think it was bad, yet today as you know to be true that any teacher or professor that Deny's evolution will be run out on a rail. I know that you complain about the former being wrong, yet I really believe you could care less about the former, you could even say to me, I do care, but I will never see or I seriously doubt you will ever write an article against the evolutionists treating teachers the way they do. So as far as I am concerned your nothing more than a hypocrite, and are only one sided.
If you say your not then write articles that are very in depth and passionate about treating creationists fairly, then maybe I will start to take you at your word. Rick b
Interested, I was reading over the blog you sent me to so I can reply to it. I am convinced that you and the atheist sites you go to never do your homework. A while back you said under the topic food for thought, I do not think that people who profess a religious belief really think for themselves because they go along with a book of stories written by a number of folks who are long gone. They listen to preachers who perpetuate the stories and offer no empirical evidence for what they say.
This is you and the websites you go to. You guys do not do your homework, you either make stuff up as you go or you say things that you think sound true. The blog writer states that their are 33,000 denominations. Not all of them had major differences in doctrine but quite a large number had some fairly major differences in core Christian beliefs.
Just because their are many denominations does not mean Christianity is real, then their are not nearly as many denominations as mentioned, part of it is, people simply group any and every religion that mention Jesus under the banner of Christians, Like Mormons and JW's for example.
Then I will start giving quotes of atheists, or scientists or evolutionists that cannot agree, does this mean because they do not agree that they are wrong?
Their is a lot to go over so I will end with this and do more later, It might be next week since I have a lot going on in these next few days.
The Author said Christianity at it’s very beginnings started with a division between Paul and the disciples left in Jerusalem. Things just got much worse as time went on. One body is what you hear Christians proclaiming but a split into 33,000 personalities would do Sybil proud.
Christianity did not start with Paul, It started with Jesus in the New Testament when he spoke to Peter and said I will build my church upon the statement peter made. Even then it really started way Back with God when Satan tempted Eve. Then as I said their are not 33,000 different denominations.
If you or your atheist friends claim their are 33,000 denominations then surly you must be able to provide a link to the list. But then again as I said, not every "church" that names Jesus is Christian. Mormons and JW's are not, but do you really care? Or will you simply say or not say it but think it, I dont care what Rick or Christians say, I want to believe they are. Rick b
Nope I can provide alink to the list...it may be out there but I don't know of it. However my point in reference to that website was not about a particular number. Even if there were only 3000 or smaller, 300 it seems to me that is too many. How can they all be right?
Interested said Even if there were only 3000 or smaller, 300 it seems to me that is too many. How can they all be right?
I never said they could all be right. I said not all are believers, not all are Christians, but then again do you simply reject Science because you take 3-4 scientists who all believe in evolution, but the points they believe in contradict each other? I know you will still believe one of them.
As far as denominations goes, the vast majority of them are true believers and believe in the Bible and the way to salvation, we just disagree on minor issues.
Like me for example, I refuse to dress up, no suit or tie type stuff for me, So some churchs believe you must wear your "Sunday best" To worship God. That is not taught in the bible, so thats a minor thing but it does divide us.
I believe the Bible is clear and women cannot be senior Pastors in the church, they can have roles of leadership in some area's but many believe they can be pastors, so that divides, but it's not a salvation issue.
Some teach you cannot drink or smoke or dance, but the Bible is clear, the kings in the OT danced and played music, Jesus Drank wine. So again minor issues, but the thing is, people like you that refuse to see this as a minor issue and go out of your way to make a mountain out of a mole hill are simple looking for excuses to denounce the bible.
But that wont hold water when you are standing before God to be Judged, The Bible even speaks to the heart of the matter on these simple issues, But you would not know that and neither would the authors of these blogs you send me to since these people and you dont bother reading the Bible.
All you do is tell me I am a mindless follower when in fact I think for my self and do my homework, while it is you who are the mindless follower since you rely on these people to think for you, but then I answer the questions and your left scrambling for another blog to direct me to, your doing nothing more than throwing up smoke and mirrors. It really is sad that you dont think for yourself. Rick b
Hello Interested, well as I said before I am kinda busy with School and work, plus a family of five. Anyway I will cut and paste a section from the blog you sent me to and talk about it in the next section below, other wise I would run out of my word limit.
Let’s take a look at a passage all Christian’s should be familiar with. It is just 4 small verses Mark 10:17-21. In the NIV these verses are titled the rich young man
17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” 18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’” 20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.” 21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
Ok, seems clear enough. The question asked Jesus was how do I get eternal life. The answer Jesus gave was follow the commandments including the one you think is hard, giving charity isn’t exactly a commandment but close enough. Please keep in mind that this was a young man. Now let’s fast forward a few years when this rich young man squandered all his money and went out into the world and got himself a job. Wasn’t a great job but the benefits were that he could beat prisoners whenever he felt like. He was a jailer, as luck would have it [not luck, my version of events] he was the jailer where Paul and Silas were jailed. Let’s take a look at Acts 16:30-31.
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
First off the Blog author implys that the Rich young man speaking to Jesus and the Jailer were the same person. Can you or anyone show me from the Bible where it staets this? Asking where this is stated is called evidence, It's not in the Bible, you guys are assuming this is the case, your assuming it is the same person.
Since your simply assuming you then believe this poses a contrdiction since Jesus told him to sell all, and Paul says Believe.
This is another case of Athiests not having a clue of what the Bible says and tehn saying it is filled with problems.
Maybe if you guys were a little more honest I would not give you a hard time.
Yes Jesus did tell that man to sell all, But he was only speaking to THAT MAN, Jesus Did not say, everyone who hears my voice or reads this letter sell all, He simply said it to that one man.
I really find it funny how you guys trash the Bible, but then when I point out your flaws you guys ignore what I say or have no honest feed back. Why is that?
Tested for accuracy? What exactly does that mean? Even biblical scholars don't agree on the translations.
The Bible has been translated into many different languages. However, the ancient manuscripts (written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek) have been reliably copied over the centuries - with very few alterations.
First, let's talk about the Old Testament. Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, our earliest Hebrew copy of the Old Testament was the Masoretic text, dating around 800 A.D. The Dead Sea Scrolls date to the time of Jesus and were copied by the Qumran community, a Jewish sect living around the Dead Sea. We also have the Septuagint, which is a Greek translation of the Old Testament, dating in the second century B.C. When we compare these texts, which have an 800-1000 year gap between them, we are amazed that 95% of the texts are identical with only minor variations and a few discrepancies. These variations and discrepancies are largely minor spelling errors, and do not affect the doctrine of what is being said in the manuscripts.
Now, let's look at the New Testament. There are tens of thousands of manuscripts from the New Testament, in part or in whole, dating from the second century A.D. to the late fifteenth century, when the printing press was invented. These manuscripts have been found in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Turkey, Greece, and Italy, making collusion unlikely. The oldest manuscript, the John Rylands manuscript, has been dated to 125 A.D. and was found in Egypt, some distance from where the New Testament was originally composed in Asia Minor. Many early Christian papyri, discovered in 1935, have been dated to 150 A.D., and include the four gospels. The Papyrus Bodmer II, discovered in 1956, has been dated to 200 A.D., and contains 14 chapters and portions of the last seven chapters of the gospel of John. The Chester Beatty biblical papyri, discovered in 1931, has been dated to 200-250 A.D. and contains the Gospels, Acts, Paul's Epistles, and Revelation. The number of manuscripts is extensive compared to other ancient historical writings, such as Caesar's "Gallic Wars" (10 Greek manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), the "Annals" of Tacitus (2 manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), Livy (20 manuscripts, the earliest 350 years after the original), and Plato (7 manuscripts).
Even if we didn't have the New Testament, we could reproduce almost all of the New Testament, just from extra-biblical sources. Thousands of early Christian writings and lexionaries (first and second century) cite verses from the New Testament. It's nearly possible to put together the entire New Testament just from early Christian writings. For example, the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (dated 95 A.D.) cites verses from the Gospels, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter. The letters of Ignatius (dated 115 A.D.) were written to several churches in Asia Minor and cites verses from Matthew, John, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus.
With all of the massive, extensive, historical manuscript evidence, you would think there would be massive discrepancies - but just the opposite is true. New Testament manuscripts agree in 99.5% of the text (compared to only 95% for the Iliad). Most of the discrepancies are in spelling and word order. A few words have been changed or added. There are two passages that are disputed, but no discrepancy is of any doctrinal significance (i.e., none would alter basic Christian doctrine). Most Bibles include the options as footnotes when there are discrepancies. How could there be such accuracy over a period of 1,400 years of copying? Two reasons: 1) The scribes that did the copying had meticulous methods for checking their copies for errors. 2) The Holy Spirit made sure we would have an accurate copy of God's word so we would not be deceived.
Credulous | Definition of Credulous at Dictionary.com:1. willing to believe or trust too readily, esp. without proper or adequate evidence; gullible. 2. marked by or arising from credulity: a credulous rumor. ... Yep, I'd say that about says it.
In College, I was required to read a book by Freud that had very strong, convincing 'proof' that God does not exist. After reading that book, for the very first time in my life, I seriously thought that maybe God does not exist after all...that maybe I had been wrong all along. But then I began to think back on the events of my life...and after a few minutes of serious doubt and unbelief, and thinking that maybe my entire life I had believed a lie, that maybe there was no such thing as 'God' after all, I realized that God really does exist. I was totally confident of this because of the things that had occurred in my life, things that I had seen occur in the lives of my family members and other people I knew, and things that I had read about.
There have been many examples. Here is one example:
Years ago I was hiking with a group in North Carolina. For some reason which I don't even now remember, I got really, really, mad...I was EXTREMELY agitated! In fact, I was SO agitated, angry and irritated, that I took my walking stick and, in a fit of immature anger, smashed it in half against a tree. I was the last one in the line of hikers, so, realizing I could not go on with such an attitude, which would ruin everyone else's (and my) day (because, if I continued with that attitude, I knew people would start saying things like, "What's your problem? Why are you acting like such a jerk?"), I dropped to my knees and quietly (yet very sincerely) prayed. A few minutes later, I didn't stand up...instead, I actually LEAPED up with incredible JOY and EXUBERATION! I was extremely EXCITED and incredibly HAPPY---SO happy, that I lifted up my hands to God, rejoicing, and began jumping up and down for joy! I ran...actually, I BOUNCED...jumping up and down in excitement, to catch up to the rest of the group. God had not only taken away my furious anger, but He had replaced it with His joy. My attitude had been INSTANTANEOUSLY changed, to the very opposite extreme..to a RADICAL degree.
Now, I am the type of person that can nurse a grudge, and I tend to let things boil inside of me, until I explode like a volcano. At that point, I become so enraged, that it takes me a long, long time to cool down. (In the years since, God has been working on me to teach me not to be so much like that.) During that hike, when my furious anger was not only instantly erased, but replaced with ecstatic JOY, that was something that only God could do in me, because there was absolutely NO earthly or natural reason for me to not only stop being mad, but become instantly joyful and exuberantly excited.
Another time...and this happened after I had already been saved...I was deeply burdened with guilt over something that I had done...this was the most burdened and guilty I had ever been and felt in my entire life. (It really wasn't anything all that bad, but I was young and still learning.) For the first and only time in my life, I seriously began believing (in ignorance) that I had committed the unpardonable sin. I began to consider that, no matter what I did from that point on...even if I asked for forgiveness...I was still going to burn in Hell forever. Everything that I had done and believed in my life didn't matter, because I had now possibly committed a sin that was absolutely unforgivable. I wondered if, no matter what happened, I was now destined for Hell, and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it. I felt like there was a heavy, black cloud of depression and hopelessness over me. I was so upset and distraught over this, that it actually caused me to throw up!
Well, since I had nothing to lose, I knelt down and prayed. Even though I didn't believe I could be forgiven, I begged for forgiveness anyway, pouring my heart and soul out to the Lord Jesus, turning away from my sin and turning to Him for help. I was completely, totally, deeply sincere with God, and it was a true, heartfelt prayer. Suddenly, and instantly, I felt a huge, gigantic, incredibly heavy weight being lifted off of me! The 'dark cloud' which had seemed to cover me, suddenly vanished!
People often use the phrase, "it was like a heavy weight had been lifted off of me," to the point of being over-used, so that it is almost a meaningless phrase anymore. Well, for the first time in my life, that phrase became real to me. I suddenly felt an unearthly peace...not a peace like you feel sitting in a quiet meadow or beside the ocean as you relax...no, something far deeper. I suddenly knew that all was right with my soul. I was confident that nothing could harm me, because I was restored to God, and He was protecting me. Even someone being rescued after being buried for days by an earthquake could not feel such soul-deep peace. I felt like I had gone from Hell to Heaven in an instant...from a sense of the darkest depression, total futility, and complete hopelessness, to a peace and exhilaration, release and comfort, unlike anything else in the world! And this change had occurred in a split-second!
The discoveries of archaeology since the mid-1800s have demonstrated the reliability and plausibility of the Bible narrative. For example:
The discovery of the Ebla archive in northern Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the Patriarchs to be viable. Documents written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. The name “Canaan” was in use in Ebla, a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The word tehom (“the deep”) in Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing of the creation story. But “Tehom” was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from Nuzi and Mari.
The Hittites were once thought to be a Biblical legend, until their capital and records were discovered at Bogazkoy, Turkey.
Many thought the Biblical references to Solomon's wealth were greatly exaggerated. Recovered records from the past show that wealth in antiquity was concentrated with the king and Solomon's prosperity was entirely feasible.
It was once claimed there was no Assyrian king named Sargon as recorded in Isaiah 20:1, because this name was not known in any other record. Then, Sargon's palace was discovered in Khorsabad, Iraq. The very event mentioned in Isaiah 20, his capture of Ashdod, was recorded on the palace walls. What is more, fragments of a stela memorializing the victory were found at Ashdod itself.
Another king who was in doubt was Belshazzar, king of Babylon, named in Daniel 5. The last king of Babylon was Nabonidus according to recorded history. Tablets were found showing that Belshazzar was Nabonidus' son who served as coregent in Babylon. Thus, Belshazzar could offer to make Daniel “third highest ruler in the kingdom” (Dan. 5:16) for reading the handwriting on the wall, the highest available position. Here we see the “eye-witness” nature of the Biblical record, as is so often brought out by the discoveries of archaeology.
Jeff you spent a lot of time and effort in posting your comments and I am not unimpressed.
I just want to mention that no matter how good the translation of the Iliad, the story is still fiction.
Agreed, there are many places in the bible that have borne out. They do exist, some of the people actually exist, perhaps even Jesus, but that does not make him divine. Nor is it proof of the existence of god. It is proof that people of that time, like today, did and do believe in a divine being.
37 comments:
Here are my thoughts on the Video.
The whole Miracle thing is really stupid, No one alive today was alive 2000 years ago, so we do not know what Jesus or the Virgin Mary looks like, Also The Virgin Mary is no longer a virgin, After the Virgin Birth she went onto have other Kids, so she cannot be a virgin any longer.
People are just down right stupid, But the thinking Atheist has issues of there own. Like I said in the last Topic, Atheist scientists were the ones to make Evolution Hoaxes and they were exposed as such, I guess it Shows no one is perfect and both sides can lie or be mis-lead. And for the record I do not believe in the Shroud of Turin, I am guessing it is a hoax, never once believed it was a real burned imprint of Jesus. Rick b
The fact that you see the idiocy of these tales speaks volumes for your intelligence. Bravo!
As for the hoaxes...well the fact that they were exposed speaks volumes for the scientific community.
Interested, I'm not a stupid guy just because I believe in Creation. I see you the same way you see me, I see you as a brain dead follower of people you simply believe by faith. You admit you cannot defend your believe and simply rely on other to hope they are correct.
The fact that hoaxs were expoused only shows that some in your little circle are moral and refuse to lie. But then again that goes the same for me, I wont lie to defend what I believe. If people are doing stupid stuff I will call bull on the stupid stuff. Rick b
To say that atheism requires faith is as dim-witted as saying that disbelief in pixies or leprechauns takes faith. Even if Einstein himself told me there was an elf on my shoulder, I would still ask for proof and I wouldn’t be wrong to ask. – Geoff Mather
atheism requires faith because you believe by faith. You said you are not 100 percent sure of what you believe, so if your not 100 percent sure then that means you need faith to believe. You also have faith because much of what you believe cannot be proven by science and cannot be tested by science.
Science is something you cling to and base a lot of your belief's upon, you keep bringing up science and talking about how great it is, but since science cannot prove what you believe it again boils down to faith. Rick b
Check this post Rick.
http://noreligionblog.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/the-church-a-house/#more-553
That video is nothing more than a blatant attack on God, and an attempt to ridicule God and all who believe in God.
Those people who actually believe that images of Mary or Jesus in a piece of toast, on the side of a building, or wherever, are a miracle from God are, to my knowledge, usually Catholics who are not true born-again Christians, but who are merely superstitious (and I'm not saying that all Catholics are not true born-again Christians, but as far as I know, only a very few are, my own Aunt apparently being one of them as far as I can tell...neither can I fairly say that all Catholics are so superstitious that they would worship or honor a piece of toast, or consider it something divine). To include them among true believers is, at least for the most part, a false assumption. A true born-again Christian would more than likely have the spiritual discernment to recognize things that are merely coincidence...though I do accept the possibility that there may be some true Christians who do not have such discernment.
I looked over the blog site, I will reply about it later, but here are some thoughts that pertain to you.
I find it really funny again how you have said before those of us who believe in the Bible do not really think for ourselves and just blindly believe the pastors of the churchs.
Yet every time I challenge you and say you are the same way and do not think for your self since you cannot defend what you believe or you admit your not sure of what you believe, the only thing your 100 percent sure of is that I am wrong.
Every time this happens you always send me to video's, blog's, or websites of people who claim the Bible is wrong and people who think they know what they are talking about. So I just find it funny how your not thinking but having others think for you and your not defending what you believe but attacking what I believe. My thoughts on the blog later. Rick b
Rick I don't say you are wrong, I say simply that I cannot believe in any god. You have your beliefs and I have a lack of belief.
Regarding the woman who discovered the image of the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich, although the article I found said that she was Baptist, and not Catholic, she was obviously very superstitious, and the fact that she was a dollmaker may have had something to do with her vivid imagination:
""It scared me half to death," said Duyser, a housewife and amateur doll maker.
Duyser told friends and neighbors, and the story spread throughout metro Miami. She kept the sandwich in a small plastic container and padded it with cotton.
"All those years, whenever I'd get real down, I'd go in and say things to her and make sure she was still there," Duyser said. "Sometimes my husband would come in and say, 'What is this lady trying to say to us, this Virgin Mary?' And I'd say, 'I don't know, honey, unless she wants us to put her out there and show the whole world.'"
Duyser said the past decade has been blessed because of the sandwich. She won $70,000 at a Florida Indian casino and attributes it to the sandwich.
As you might expect, the reaction from most people (including Catholics) has been justifiably skeptical..."
from:
http://markshea.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_archive.html
Attributing winning money in a casino to a sandwich proves that she is superstitious, and raises heavy doubts that she is a true Christian at all. Just because she attends a Baptist church does not mean she is truly a Christian. I also find it interesting that even Catholics are dubious of the toast being of a miraculous nature.
" I also find it interesting that even Catholics are dubious of the toast being of a miraculous nature" I think all sane people would be dubious but then the bible has some pretty hard to believe stories as well, and millions swear by it.
"She talks to the sandwich likes it's a person."
From that same article about that same lady. This is another evidence that the lady is merely highly superstitious.
Let's see; you believe that a man was born of a virgin, walked on water and rose from the dead after three days...sounds pretty superstitious to me.
I think all sane people would be dubious but then the bible has some pretty hard to believe stories as well, and millions swear by it.
And the Bible has been tested again and again and again for accuracy, by biblical scholars and by many who have attacked it, as well as by various fields such as archaeology, textual criticism, etc., and has been shown to be accurate and reliable.
Let's see; you believe that a man was born of a virgin, walked on water and rose from the dead after three days...sounds pretty superstitious to me.
You are completely incorrect in your assumption. Superstition is a credulous belief or notion, not based on reason, knowledge, or experience. My belief in the Bible is based on all three: reason, knowledge and experience. As far as experience, no, I don't mean that I was born of a virgin or have ever walked on water or have ever risen from the dead. But I have experienced miracles in my own life, and have witnessed miracles in the lives of some of my family members and friends, and have read about many others. The greatest miracle in my life being that I was transformed.
Interested, I have a challenge for you: go through the entire Bible in a detailed analysis and prove that the miracles in it are false. Do a detailed study of it to prove that the Bible is false. Take months or years to do it, but do a thorough job. I don't mean just pick out verses or stories. I mean, do a detailed critical analysis of it. Don't rely on things that others tell you; find out for yourself.
Tested for accuracy? What exactly does that mean? Even biblical scholars don't agree on the translations.
Credulous | Definition of Credulous at Dictionary.com:1. willing to believe or trust too readily, esp. without proper or adequate evidence; gullible. 2. marked by or arising from credulity: a credulous rumor. ...
Yep, I'd say that about says it.
Abraham Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address
Abraham Lincoln - 03/04/1865
Fellow-Countrymen:
At this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first. Then, a statement somewhat in detail of a course to be pursued seemed fitting and proper. Now, at the expiration of four years, during which public declarations have been constantly called forth on every point and phase of the great contest which still absorbs the attention and engrosses the energies of the nation, little that is new could be presented. The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself, and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured.
On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, insurgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war--seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came.
One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease.
Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
This is a quote from Abraham Lincoln. He was a believer in Jesus Christ. He believed in the Bible. That video is full of lies and misrepresentations. I am disappointed that you would do this. Wow... that makes me very sad. I hoped you were above this kind of thing.
Shelli
The 2 posts were together.
Shelli
Sheli you may be right about Abe Lincoln but there are many who disagree with you. Most of the early presidents were deist not Christian. It seems from what we know that Lincoln never went to church and had less than stellar feelings about Christianity. A quote from http://www.adherents.com/people/pl/Abraham_Lincoln.html states that "Lincoln never joined a church nor ever made a clear profession of standard Christian beliefs."
Furthermore,your statement " I hoped you were above this kind of thing." astounds me! What on earth are you thinking? What kind of thing?
Interested, you said people do not agree with you on Abe, did you ever think that maybe it's more a matter of people did not agree with Abe.
Many People like to the the founders were not Christians, Tell me after reading these quotes if you think these men were believers or not. If they are or were nor believers then you could have fooled me.
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The Founders As Christians
04/2006
(Note: this is a representative list only, there are many other quotes that could be listed)
Samuel Adams
Father of the American Revolution, Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I . . . recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.
Will of Samuel Adams
Charles Carroll
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.
From an autographed letter in our possession written by Charles Carroll to Charles W. Wharton, Esq., on September 27, 1825, from Doughoragen, Maryland.
William Cushing
First Associate Justice Appointed by George Washington to the Supreme Court
Sensible of my mortality, but being of sound mind, after recommending my soul to Almighty God through the merits of my Redeemer and my body to the earth . . .
Will of William Cushing
John Dickinson
Signer of the Constitution
Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.
Will of John Dickinson
John Hancock
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I John Hancock, . . . being advanced in years and being of perfect mind and memory-thanks be given to God-therefore calling to mind the mortality of my body and knowing it is appointed for all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make and ordain this my last will and testament…Principally and first of all, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of God that gave it: and my body I recommend to the earth . . . nothing doubting but at the general resurrection I shall receive the same again by the mercy and power of God. . .
Will of John Hancock
Patrick Henry
Governor of Virginia, Patriot
This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.
Will of Patrick Henry
John Jay
First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court
Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved son. He has been pleased to bless me with excellent parents, with a virtuous wife, and with worthy children. His protection has companied me through many eventful years, faithfully employed in the service of my country; His providence has not only conducted me to this tranquil situation but also given me abundant reason to be contented and thankful. Blessed be His holy name!
Will of John Jay
Daniel St. Thomas Jenifer
Signer of the Constitution
In the name of God, Amen. I, Daniel of Saint Thomas Jenifer . . . of dispossing mind and memory, commend my soul to my blessed Redeemer. . .
Will of Daniel St. Thomas Jenifer
Henry Knox
Revolutionary War General, Secretary of War
First, I think it proper to express my unshaken opinion of the immortality of my soul or mind; and to dedicate and devote the same to the supreme head of the Universe – to that great and tremendous Jehovah, – Who created the universal frame of nature, worlds, and systems in number infinite . . . To this awfully sublime Being do I resign my spirit with unlimited confidence of His mercy and protection . . .
Will of Henry Knox
John Langdon
Signer of the Constitution
In the name of God, Amen. I, John Langdon, . . . considering the uncertainty of life and that it is appointed unto all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make, ordain and publish this my last will and testament in manner following, that is to say-First: I commend my soul to the infinite mercies of God in Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of the Father, who died and rose again that He might be the Lord of the dead and of the living . . . professing to believe and hope in the joyful Scripture doctrine of a resurrection to eternal life . . .
Will of John Langdon
John Morton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
With an awful reverence to the great Almighty God, Creator of all mankind, I, John Morton . . . being sick and weak in body but of sound mind and memory-thanks be given to Almighty God for the same, for all His mercies and favors-and considering the certainty of death and the uncertainty of the times thereof, do, for the settling of such temporal estate as it hath pleased God to bless me with in this life . . .
Will of John Morton
Robert Treat Paine
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I desire to bless and praise the name of God most high for appointing me my birth in a land of Gospel Light where the glorious tidings of a Savior and of pardon and salvation through Him have been continually sounding in mine ears.
Robert Treat Paine, The Papers of Robert Treat Paine, Stephen Riley and Edward Hanson, editors (Boston: Massachusetts Historical Society, 1992), Vol. I, p. 48, March/April, 1749.
[W]hen I consider that this instrument contemplates my departure from this life and all earthly enjoyments and my entrance on another state of existence, I am constrained to express my adoration of the Supreme Being, the Author of my existence, in full belief of his providential goodness and his forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state, acknowledging with grateful remembrance the happiness I have enjoyed in my passage through a long life. . .
Will of Robert Treat Paine
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
Signer of the Constitution
To the eternal, immutable, and only true God be all honor and glory, now and forever, Amen!. . .
Will of Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
Rufus Putnam
Revolutionary War General, First Surveyor General of the United States
[F]irst, I give my soul to a holy, sovereign God Who gave it in humble hope of a blessed immortality through the atonement and righteousness of Jesus Christ and the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit. My body I commit to the earth to be buried in a decent Christian manner. I fully believe that this body shall, by the mighty power of God, be raised to life at the last day; 'for this corruptable (sic) must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality.' [I Corinthians 15:53]
Will of Rufus Putnam
Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!
Benjamin Rush, The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, George Corner, editor (Princeton: Princeton University Press for the American Philosophical Society, 1948), p. 166, Travels Through Life, An Account of Sundry Incidents & Events in the Life of Benjamin Rush.
Roger Sherman
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Signer of the Constitution
I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. . . . that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God. . . . that God did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer.
Lewis Henry Boutell, The Life of Roger Sherman (Chicago: A. C. McClurg and Company, 1896), pp. 272-273.
Richard Stockton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I think it proper here not only to subscribe to the entire belief of the great and leading doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the Being of God, the universal defection and depravity of human nature, the divinity of the person and the completeness of the redemption purchased by the blessed Savior, the necessity of the operations of the Divine Spirit, of Divine Faith, accompanied with an habitual virtuous life, and the universality of the divine Providence, but also . . . that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom; that the way of life held up in the Christian system is calculated for the most complete happiness that can be enjoyed in this mortal state; that all occasions of vice and immorality is injurious either immediately or consequentially, even in this life; that as Almighty God hath not been pleased in the Holy Scriptures to prescribe any precise mode in which He is to be publicly worshiped, all contention about it generally arises from want of knowledge or want of virtue.
Will of Richard Stockton
Jonathan Trumbull Sr.
Governor of Connecticut, Patriot
Principally and first of all, I bequeath my soul to God the Creator and Giver thereof, and body to the Earth . . . nothing doubting but that I shall receive the same again at the General Resurrection thro the power of Almighty God; believing and hoping for eternal life thro the merits of my dear, exalted Redeemer Jesus Christ.
Will of Jonathan Trumbull
John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I entreat you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for there is no salvation in any other [Acts 4:12]. . . . [I]f you are not reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, if you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish.
John Witherspoon, The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), Vol. V, pp. 276, 278, The Absolute Necessity of Salvation Through Christ, January 2, 1758.
All these quotes were taken from the web site I told you about twice before, www.wallbuilders.org
Rick, I don't doubt your quotes but there is one thing that we both know: any politician now or in the past who did not profess a belief in god would be ridden out of town on a rail. I look for the day when a person can run for office based entirely on his politics and not his religion.
Interested said any politician now or in the past who did not profess a belief in god would be ridden out of town on a rail.
Why do you say this as if you think it was bad, yet today as you know to be true that any teacher or professor that Deny's evolution will be run out on a rail. I know that you complain about the former being wrong, yet I really believe you could care less about the former, you could even say to me, I do care, but I will never see or I seriously doubt you will ever write an article against the evolutionists treating teachers the way they do. So as far as I am concerned your nothing more than a hypocrite, and are only one sided.
If you say your not then write articles that are very in depth and passionate about treating creationists fairly, then maybe I will start to take you at your word. Rick b
Interested, I was reading over the blog you sent me to so I can reply to it. I am convinced that you and the atheist sites you go to never do your homework. A while back you said under the topic food for thought,
I do not think that people who profess a religious belief really think for themselves because they go along with a book of stories written by a number of folks who are long gone. They listen to preachers who perpetuate the stories and offer no empirical evidence for what they say.
This is you and the websites you go to. You guys do not do your homework, you either make stuff up as you go or you say things that you think sound true. The blog writer states that their are 33,000 denominations. Not all of them had major differences in doctrine but quite a large number had some fairly major differences in core Christian beliefs.
Just because their are many denominations does not mean Christianity is real, then their are not nearly as many denominations as mentioned, part of it is, people simply group any and every religion that mention Jesus under the banner of Christians, Like Mormons and JW's for example.
Then I will start giving quotes of atheists, or scientists or evolutionists that cannot agree, does this mean because they do not agree that they are wrong?
Their is a lot to go over so I will end with this and do more later, It might be next week since I have a lot going on in these next few days.
The Author said Christianity at it’s very beginnings started with a division between Paul and the disciples left in Jerusalem. Things just got much worse as time went on. One body is what you hear Christians proclaiming but a split into 33,000 personalities would do Sybil proud.
Christianity did not start with Paul, It started with Jesus in the New Testament when he spoke to Peter and said I will build my church upon the statement peter made. Even then it really started way Back with God when Satan tempted Eve. Then as I said their are not 33,000 different denominations.
If you or your atheist friends claim their are 33,000 denominations then surly you must be able to provide a link to the list. But then again as I said, not every "church" that names Jesus is Christian. Mormons and JW's are not, but do you really care? Or will you simply say or not say it but think it, I dont care what Rick or Christians say, I want to believe they are. Rick b
Nope I can provide alink to the list...it may be out there but I don't know of it. However my point in reference to that website was not about a particular number. Even if there were only 3000 or smaller, 300 it seems to me that is too many. How can they all be right?
Interested said Even if there were only 3000 or smaller, 300 it seems to me that is too many. How can they all be right?
I never said they could all be right. I said not all are believers, not all are Christians, but then again do you simply reject Science because you take 3-4 scientists who all believe in evolution, but the points they believe in contradict each other? I know you will still believe one of them.
As far as denominations goes, the vast majority of them are true believers and believe in the Bible and the way to salvation, we just disagree on minor issues.
Like me for example, I refuse to dress up, no suit or tie type stuff for me, So some churchs believe you must wear your "Sunday best" To worship God. That is not taught in the bible, so thats a minor thing but it does divide us.
I believe the Bible is clear and women cannot be senior Pastors in the church, they can have roles of leadership in some area's but many believe they can be pastors, so that divides, but it's not a salvation issue.
Some teach you cannot drink or smoke or dance, but the Bible is clear, the kings in the OT danced and played music, Jesus Drank wine. So again minor issues, but the thing is, people like you that refuse to see this as a minor issue and go out of your way to make a mountain out of a mole hill are simple looking for excuses to denounce the bible.
But that wont hold water when you are standing before God to be Judged, The Bible even speaks to the heart of the matter on these simple issues, But you would not know that and neither would the authors of these blogs you send me to since these people and you dont bother reading the Bible.
All you do is tell me I am a mindless follower when in fact I think for my self and do my homework, while it is you who are the mindless follower since you rely on these people to think for you, but then I answer the questions and your left scrambling for another blog to direct me to, your doing nothing more than throwing up smoke and mirrors. It really is sad that you dont think for yourself. Rick b
Hello Interested, well as I said before I am kinda busy with School and work, plus a family of five. Anyway I will cut and paste a section from the blog you sent me to and talk about it in the next section below, other wise I would run out of my word limit.
Let’s take a look at a passage all Christian’s should be familiar with. It is just 4 small verses Mark 10:17-21. In the NIV these verses are titled the rich young man
17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” 18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’” 20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.” 21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
Ok, seems clear enough. The question asked Jesus was how do I get eternal life. The answer Jesus gave was follow the commandments including the one you think is hard, giving charity isn’t exactly a commandment but close enough. Please keep in mind that this was a young man. Now let’s fast forward a few years when this rich young man squandered all his money and went out into the world and got himself a job. Wasn’t a great job but the benefits were that he could beat prisoners whenever he felt like. He was a jailer, as luck would have it [not luck, my version of events] he was the jailer where Paul and Silas were jailed. Let’s take a look at Acts 16:30-31.
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
First off the Blog author implys that the Rich young man speaking to Jesus and the Jailer were the same person. Can you or anyone show me from the Bible where it staets this? Asking where this is stated is called evidence, It's not in the Bible, you guys are assuming this is the case, your assuming it is the same person.
Since your simply assuming you then believe this poses a contrdiction since Jesus told him to sell all, and Paul says Believe.
This is another case of Athiests not having a clue of what the Bible says and tehn saying it is filled with problems.
Maybe if you guys were a little more honest I would not give you a hard time.
Yes Jesus did tell that man to sell all, But he was only speaking to THAT MAN, Jesus Did not say, everyone who hears my voice or reads this letter sell all, He simply said it to that one man.
I really find it funny how you guys trash the Bible, but then when I point out your flaws you guys ignore what I say or have no honest feed back. Why is that?
I will post more as I get time. Rick b
Tested for accuracy? What exactly does that mean? Even biblical scholars don't agree on the translations.
The Bible has been translated into many different languages. However, the ancient manuscripts (written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek) have been reliably copied over the centuries - with very few alterations.
First, let's talk about the Old Testament. Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, our earliest Hebrew copy of the Old Testament was the Masoretic text, dating around 800 A.D. The Dead Sea Scrolls date to the time of Jesus and were copied by the Qumran community, a Jewish sect living around the Dead Sea. We also have the Septuagint, which is a Greek translation of the Old Testament, dating in the second century B.C. When we compare these texts, which have an 800-1000 year gap between them, we are amazed that 95% of the texts are identical with only minor variations and a few discrepancies. These variations and discrepancies are largely minor spelling errors, and do not affect the doctrine of what is being said in the manuscripts.
Now, let's look at the New Testament. There are tens of thousands of manuscripts from the New Testament, in part or in whole, dating from the second century A.D. to the late fifteenth century, when the printing press was invented. These manuscripts have been found in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Turkey, Greece, and Italy, making collusion unlikely. The oldest manuscript, the John Rylands manuscript, has been dated to 125 A.D. and was found in Egypt, some distance from where the New Testament was originally composed in Asia Minor. Many early Christian papyri, discovered in 1935, have been dated to 150 A.D., and include the four gospels. The Papyrus Bodmer II, discovered in 1956, has been dated to 200 A.D., and contains 14 chapters and portions of the last seven chapters of the gospel of John. The Chester Beatty biblical papyri, discovered in 1931, has been dated to 200-250 A.D. and contains the Gospels, Acts, Paul's Epistles, and Revelation. The number of manuscripts is extensive compared to other ancient historical writings, such as Caesar's "Gallic Wars" (10 Greek manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), the "Annals" of Tacitus (2 manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), Livy (20 manuscripts, the earliest 350 years after the original), and Plato (7 manuscripts).
Even if we didn't have the New Testament, we could reproduce almost all of the New Testament, just from extra-biblical sources. Thousands of early Christian writings and lexionaries (first and second century) cite verses from the New Testament. It's nearly possible to put together the entire New Testament just from early Christian writings. For example, the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (dated 95 A.D.) cites verses from the Gospels, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter. The letters of Ignatius (dated 115 A.D.) were written to several churches in Asia Minor and cites verses from Matthew, John, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus.
With all of the massive, extensive, historical manuscript evidence, you would think there would be massive discrepancies - but just the opposite is true. New Testament manuscripts agree in 99.5% of the text (compared to only 95% for the Iliad). Most of the discrepancies are in spelling and word order. A few words have been changed or added. There are two passages that are disputed, but no discrepancy is of any doctrinal significance (i.e., none would alter basic Christian doctrine). Most Bibles include the options as footnotes when there are discrepancies. How could there be such accuracy over a period of 1,400 years of copying? Two reasons: 1) The scribes that did the copying had meticulous methods for checking their copies for errors. 2) The Holy Spirit made sure we would have an accurate copy of God's word so we would not be deceived.
Credulous | Definition of Credulous at Dictionary.com:1. willing to believe or trust too readily, esp. without proper or adequate evidence; gullible. 2. marked by or arising from credulity: a credulous rumor. ...
Yep, I'd say that about says it.
In College, I was required to read a book by Freud that had very strong, convincing 'proof' that God does not exist. After reading that book, for the very first time in my life, I seriously thought that maybe God does not exist after all...that maybe I had been wrong all along. But then I began to think back on the events of my life...and after a few minutes of serious doubt and unbelief, and thinking that maybe my entire life I had believed a lie, that maybe there was no such thing as 'God' after all, I realized that God really does exist. I was totally confident of this because of the things that had occurred in my life, things that I had seen occur in the lives of my family members and other people I knew, and things that I had read about.
There have been many examples. Here is one example:
Years ago I was hiking with a group in North Carolina. For some reason which I don't even now remember, I got really, really, mad...I was EXTREMELY agitated! In fact, I was SO agitated, angry and irritated, that I took my walking stick and, in a fit of immature anger, smashed it in half against a tree. I was the last one in the line of hikers, so, realizing I could not go on with such an attitude, which would ruin everyone else's (and my) day (because, if I continued with that attitude, I knew people would start saying things like, "What's your problem? Why are you acting like such a jerk?"), I dropped to my knees and quietly (yet very sincerely) prayed. A few minutes later, I didn't stand up...instead, I actually LEAPED up with incredible JOY and EXUBERATION! I was extremely EXCITED and incredibly HAPPY---SO happy, that I lifted up my hands to God, rejoicing, and began jumping up and down for joy! I ran...actually, I BOUNCED...jumping up and down in excitement, to catch up to the rest of the group. God had not only taken away my furious anger, but He had replaced it with His joy. My attitude had been INSTANTANEOUSLY changed, to the very opposite extreme..to a RADICAL degree.
Now, I am the type of person that can nurse a grudge, and I tend to let things boil inside of me, until I explode like a volcano. At that point, I become so enraged, that it takes me a long, long time to cool down. (In the years since, God has been working on me to teach me not to be so much like that.) During that hike, when my furious anger was not only instantly erased, but replaced with ecstatic JOY, that was something that only God could do in me, because there was absolutely NO earthly or natural reason for me to not only stop being mad, but become instantly joyful and exuberantly excited.
Another time...and this happened after I had already been saved...I was deeply burdened with guilt over something that I had done...this was the most burdened and guilty I had ever been and felt in my entire life. (It really wasn't anything all that bad, but I was young and still learning.) For the first and only time in my life, I seriously began believing (in ignorance) that I had committed the unpardonable sin. I began to consider that, no matter what I did from that point on...even if I asked for forgiveness...I was still going to burn in Hell forever. Everything that I had done and believed in my life didn't matter, because I had now possibly committed a sin that was absolutely unforgivable. I wondered if, no matter what happened, I was now destined for Hell, and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it. I felt like there was a heavy, black cloud of depression and hopelessness over me. I was so upset and distraught over this, that it actually caused me to throw up!
Well, since I had nothing to lose, I knelt down and prayed. Even though I didn't believe I could be forgiven, I begged for forgiveness anyway, pouring my heart and soul out to the Lord Jesus, turning away from my sin and turning to Him for help. I was completely, totally, deeply sincere with God, and it was a true, heartfelt prayer. Suddenly, and instantly, I felt a huge, gigantic, incredibly heavy weight being lifted off of me! The 'dark cloud' which had seemed to cover me, suddenly vanished!
People often use the phrase, "it was like a heavy weight had been lifted off of me," to the point of being over-used, so that it is almost a meaningless phrase anymore. Well, for the first time in my life, that phrase became real to me. I suddenly felt an unearthly peace...not a peace like you feel sitting in a quiet meadow or beside the ocean as you relax...no, something far deeper. I suddenly knew that all was right with my soul. I was confident that nothing could harm me, because I was restored to God, and He was protecting me. Even someone being rescued after being buried for days by an earthquake could not feel such soul-deep peace. I felt like I had gone from Hell to Heaven in an instant...from a sense of the darkest depression, total futility, and complete hopelessness, to a peace and exhilaration, release and comfort, unlike anything else in the world! And this change had occurred in a split-second!
The discoveries of archaeology since the mid-1800s have demonstrated the reliability and plausibility of the Bible narrative. For example:
The discovery of the Ebla archive in northern Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the Patriarchs to be viable. Documents written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. The name “Canaan” was in use in Ebla, a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The word tehom (“the deep”) in Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing of the creation story. But “Tehom” was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from Nuzi and Mari.
The Hittites were once thought to be a Biblical legend, until their capital and records were discovered at Bogazkoy, Turkey.
Many thought the Biblical references to Solomon's wealth were greatly exaggerated. Recovered records from the past show that wealth in antiquity was concentrated with the king and Solomon's prosperity was entirely feasible.
It was once claimed there was no Assyrian king named Sargon as recorded in Isaiah 20:1, because this name was not known in any other record. Then, Sargon's palace was discovered in Khorsabad, Iraq. The very event mentioned in Isaiah 20, his capture of Ashdod, was recorded on the palace walls. What is more, fragments of a stela memorializing the victory were found at Ashdod itself.
Another king who was in doubt was Belshazzar, king of Babylon, named in Daniel 5. The last king of Babylon was Nabonidus according to recorded history. Tablets were found showing that Belshazzar was Nabonidus' son who served as coregent in Babylon. Thus, Belshazzar could offer to make Daniel “third highest ruler in the kingdom” (Dan. 5:16) for reading the handwriting on the wall, the highest available position. Here we see the “eye-witness” nature of the Biblical record, as is so often brought out by the discoveries of archaeology.
Jeff you spent a lot of time and effort in posting your comments and I am not unimpressed.
I just want to mention that no matter how good the translation of the Iliad, the story is still fiction.
Agreed, there are many places in the bible that have borne out. They do exist, some of the people actually exist, perhaps even Jesus, but that does not make him divine. Nor is it proof of the existence of god. It is proof that people of that time, like today, did and do believe in a divine being.
But thank you for your thoughtful answers.
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