“… I find it funny people … claim, we don’t believe God exists, we don’t believe
God would do this or that.… how can you say, you don’t believe God would do this
or that; you deny He even exists, so why do you care what He would do or not
do.”
I have decided to create a new thread to answer his question. Rick finds it “funny” that atheist would say we don’t believe in God and then that we don’t believe “He” would do that.
He may be right on this point, at least in the literal sense of the statement. However, my statement is somewhat different:
I do not believe in the existence of any god.
Rick provides me with a description of his god and I reject the notion just as I do many others. But the second part of his statement needs some clarification I think because I agree that if you DO NOT believe in something you CAN NOT disbelieve that the thing you don’t believe in would or would not do something.
What should be expressed here is the disbelief that ANY god who COULD create a perfect universe with perfect creatures WOULD do so. And if he/she WOULD do so, there must be a logical explanation.
It makes no logical sense for a god to create a people that he/she requires to worship and obey him/her, and then allow them to do otherwise. I’ve heard that free will stuff but it makes no logical sense.
If I were god I would do it right the first time and have my worshipers at my feet for eternity…why take chances…why wait…why play games with the lives of my perfect creations?
So Rick, I don't "care what he/she does or doesn't do" and I don't believe he/she exist and I don't believe if he/she did exist he/she would do the things you claim.
It makes no sense.
14 comments:
If you do not believe God exists, or for that matter any god exists, thats fine. But why say, God would never punish people for doing this or that.
I ask and say this for a few reasons.
1. I dont understand why you guys care.
2. If God said He will punish people for X-Y- or Z, then He said it, not me. So how can you say God lies when He said He would punish people for doing or not doing what He said.
3. Lets say I'm correct and God does exist, why is it so hard to believe that God would punish people for going against what He said.
Humans want people punished, If you were raped or your child molested, your not going to say, no sweat, dont do it again, I'm fine with you walking free and having no form of punishment.
Humans want people to protect them, be it police, or a body guard or who ever, We humans appoint Judges and others for these reasons.
So why is it so hard for people to have a God say He will punish people if we as humans do it? Rick b
Rick said: I dont understand why you guys care.
I don't care...except when your belief interferes with my life.
Rick said: So how can you say God lies when He said He would punish people for doing or not doing what He said.
I never said he lied. What I said is that it is illogical for anyone to create an imperfect creature and then punish it for not being perfect....
Rick said: Lets say I'm correct and God does exist, why is it so hard to believe that God would punish people for going against what He said.
This is the part that you don't understand. If your god is perfect, all-knowing, all-seeing, and loving WHY would he allow such horror on the earth of his creation?
Rick said: Humans want people punished, If you were raped or your child molested, your not going to say, no sweat, dont do it again, I'm fine with you walking free and having no form of punishment.
You are very correct. If I were raped or my child molested I WOULD want the culprit punished, BUT I DIDN'T CREATE THE RAPIST.
There are certian givens in the universe, in life, in existence and the most important of those is that of reason. What reason would he have to create all this and then watch it destroy itself? How loving can he be if he has the power to change things and doesn't? Why would he allow free will when he knows his creations are less than perfect?
I really want to know.
Interested said Rick said: I dont understand why you guys care.
I don't care...except when your belief interferes with my life.
What I meant was, why do you care if God will punish people, like homosexuals for example. You say you dont believe in God. But when Christians say, God will punish people for the homosexual lifestyle, You guys say, I dont believe God would do that.
So my point was, why do you care if we say God will punish someone if you dont believe He exists.
Then I said, You guys claim God Lies, but you said, I never said God lied. In a round about way you did and do. If I say, the Bible Teaches God will punish someone for something he/she did, But you say, I dont think God would really do that, then you really are saying God lied.
Interested said: This is the part that you don't understand. If your god is perfect, all-knowing, all-seeing, and loving WHY would he allow such horror on the earth of his creation?
He created us perfect, He told Adam and Eve, if you Eat from the fruit of this tree, YOU WILL DIE, God warned us, it is on us for not obeying. Then we were also given free will, like it or not we have the choice to do what we want, God did not create robots.
God tells us that we will face problems and were not going to have a perfect life and pretty much walk on a bed of roses.
Plus something you might no be aware of, If you say I dont believe God exists, Or you say, if He does exist, I dont want anything to do with Him and I think He is hateful or evil, Then why should you expect Him to be their for you or do anything for you?
Many people say, I dont believe God exists or if He does I hate Him, But then something bad happens in their life, They lose a job, or a loved one, or whatever, then they blame God.
First off it's not Gods Fault, way back in the garden, He told us (Adam and Eve) what would happen if they disobeyed, So in reality it is Adam and Eves fault, so we need to blame them, but also their sin effects us, like it or not.
It's like if a guy molests your Child, his actions effect you, like it or not.
Anyway, you lost a job or loved one, how is that Gods Fault? Then since these things happen and people blame God and then deny He exists or even say, I hate Him, then why should He answer your prayers or have anything to do with you?
If you said, I hate a certain person, does not matter why you hate this person, you simply hate them, then why should they come to your defense if you need help, or why should they help you out and give you money if you need it? You hate them with a passion, yet you expect them to help later down the road? Makes no sense. Hope this long reply helps to some degree. Rick b
Rick you are going in circles! Remember the statement I made was: If there were a god I do not believe he would be as cruel as you interpret from your reading of the bible. BUT I do not believe there is a god. I don't care if you believe but DO NOT impose your beliefs on my society. Gays are people and all people have rights as long as they live accourding to the LAWS of the community in which they live. However, those laws cannot and must not be based on the beliefs of one group over another.
Now if god made man perfect how is it possible that Adam and Eve could make an error in judgement? Freewill? Please...listen to that argument. Either god created them perfect and they made a mistake and they were never perfect or they were never perfect in the first place. Don't you see the falacy in your argument?
You and other atheists are one to talk about Fallacy.
Lets see, I dont believe God exists, so that means we were planted here by aliens, Or Life arose from Poison gas that cannot hold life.
We believe that a single cell got a scratch that turned into an all seeing Eye ball. Or we believe life arose from Crystals, Maybe those crystals were crystal meth.
You can say all you want that Belief in God is crazy, yet you believe Life arose from Non life.
Then you say, I can believe what I want as long as it does not interfere with your belief, Sadly it does not work like that with you guys.
Example, You fight tooth and nail to teach Evolution, But it can only be one sided, If we try to teach creation you guys cry foul, fight it out in court and so on. So it is not fair and equal like you want.
Then take abortion, Women say, it's my body and I should be able to do with it as I want, But yet thats not entirely true.
If A women wants to do drugs, even in the privacy of her own home and not share with anyone, she could go to jail, But it's her Body.
If she wants to sell herself for sex in the privacy of her own home with a adult, she can still go to jail, or if a man or women wants to commit suicide they can get locked up, but again, it's their body. So it's still messed up, in some cases it's (my) Body and I can do what I want, IE abortion, yet this does not work in these other cases. Rick b
If A women wants to do drugs, even in the privacy of her own home and not share with anyone, she could go to jail, But it's her Body. DRUGS ARE ILLEGAL that is why she would go to jail.
If she wants to sell herself for sex in the privacy of her own home with a adult, she can still go to jail, prostitution is ILLEGAL that is why she would go to jail, or if a man or women wants to commit suicide they can get locked up, REALLY? I don’t know about this one, but again, it's their body. If you mean they may be institutionalized then maybe, but it is usually only for a few days and never in jail.
I never said that I dont want anything to do with Him and I think He is hateful or evil and I have never expected him to be there for me or do anything for me.
Rick based on your writing, I don't think you read very much or at least not widely. Your arguments are the same over and over and I tend to get confused about what it is you are stating. I will send this back to you: Why would you frequent atheist blogs if you were not curious yourself? I have stated before and do so again, I don't think you are as sure about god as you claim.
I very sure about God and His existing. I find it funny how belief in God is a fallacy, yet belief in Life from non life is not, and their is no evidence to support non life into life.
Then maybe your not mad at God or asked Him for something, But I believe despite what you say, your mad at Him for some reason.
You have hinted at being a believer or religious to some degree at one time in your life, I dont recall you ever giving a detail reason behind your change.
I do know from experience that many atheists at one time were believers who felt God did not come through for them on something, so they walked away.
I also know many people from experience seem to say, If God does this or that for me then I will believe. Then Something happens to make it look like God did come through and then the person never lives up to his/her end.
Also you ask why I come to your websites or blogs, Well you guys visit ours, You were for a while on Mormon Coffee, Not my blog, but still you were their.
Also you guys as I have said before, sure talk a lot about someone you deny exists. I know many believers that dont believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy, we dont go on about these guys over and over.
Then I visit also because you guys tend to make claims like, God is hateful or evil because we read in the Bible God allowed people to Die, or God said Kill this people group.
I figure if you guys are going to talk about the Bible, then I will add my side from the point of view of a believer.
Then you say, Believe what you want, as long as it does not interfere with what I believe. Why is this so one sided?
As I said, you guys want evolution taught as fact in schools but you only want your side taught, not having both sides taught.
Interested, you might be honest and say your fine with both sides being taught, but you know as well as I do, many evolutionists and atheists only want their side taught, not both sides.
So to teach one side only is being unfair and pushing an agenda to teach only what you want taught.
Then as we both know, anyone in the area's of science that teach and believe in evolution are praised, but if they decide to convert to creation, they are fired from Jobs, denied jobs or funding or shunned.
Say what you want, but these actions towards us believers are exactly what you guys cry about saying, we dont want your life style effecting my life. But your life style can effect mine and I have to just except it as ok. Rick b
Interested said I don't care if you believe but DO NOT impose your beliefs on my society. Gays are people and all people have rights as long as they live accourding to the LAWS of the community in which they live. However, those laws cannot and must not be based on the beliefs of one group over another.
What is funny about this is, Even Atheists want their belief's pushed on people over another group.
Examples, You say we dont want your religious belief's put on us, But yet many atheists want the government to allow drug use, legalize smoking pot, or the Man boy love group wants to have sex with men and boys allowed.
Like it or not, one group will push their views upon another, You can try and deny this but you know in the end it is true, So your idea really makes no sense.
My last I removed to correct a few spelling errors. I admit my spelling is not the greatest.
Rick b
I'm a terrible speller. If not for spellcheck I would embarrass myself daily.
Rick check out this website and let me know what you think.
http://biologyinmotion.com/evol/index.html
Interested, I'm no scientist, But I am not impressed with the blog.
Just because a person set's up a blog to prove evolution proves nothing. I know you really did not care for the movie expelled, but Ben did get those Scientist that many Atheist's look up to and love to admit, Life cannot arise from Non-life. Every one of those guys had to go from life already existing to supposedly evolving.
I sat in on a lecture from a guy, he said he was a former Atheist/scientist who has won many awards and is know through out the world for his views on teaching evolution. His Name is Dr Rick Oliver. He Came to Jesus and know teaches creation. His blog is very good with tons of info, his address is, http://www.confoundthewise.com/
He was involved with the massive eruption of Mount St Helen's, He lost a friend to that eruption, they were both on the mountain when it happened. Rick showed us pictures of rock that were formed from that eruption and took home samples. He said he sent them off to 9 of the top most labs to get them dated. He claims ranged from 1000's of years to millions of years, but he saw the eruption and how the rocks formed over 12 years.
Then he showed us pictures of a tree, the tree was in 3 stages but yet one piece, one section was tree, one section was carbon, and one was fossilized rock, 3 changes yet one piece. He said this proves these various changes can take place over a short period of time, not millions of years.He said these two events were pivotal in his conversion. You can check it out.
But yet at the same time I believe that for some people they so badly want no God in their life, no matter what they see or hear, they will never believe. The Bible says only a few will find life but many will go to destruction. If nothing else, I see more fun in our very near future with Iran flat out saying, they want Israel wiped of the earth, and they want to make a nuclear weapon. Rick b
"Just because a person set's up a blog to prove evolution proves nothing."
I found it interesting because we are getting closer to replication and that is where the proof lies.
Well I still find it funny, The blog you use, you claim it proves evolution. The Guy I saw, Rick Oliver, Claims he was a very well awarded evolutionist and said in his talk, he wanted to prove that creation was a joke, and that when you were in his class if you openly said you were a creationist he would make it harder on you.
Then he uses the same evidence evolutions use to say creation is wrong, he uses it to say creation is true.
Dr Rick Oliver was saying in his talk, that as technology improves and we get more advanced in the area's of mathematics, Scientists are starting to see evolution as the fallacy it really is.
Rick Claims scientists are starting to see the truth, but they are so bent on saying God cannot be real, they still rather cling to the fallacy and are even starting to say things like, aliens seeded the earth.
But As I said before, The Gog and Magog invasion is coming. I know you found a so called christian that claims thats not true, but as Iran gets bolder and bolder were getting so close, I believe it will happen in my life time. Rick b
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