Dawkins vs Pope

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God is Busy

Read this on another site and in light of what is going on in my life right now just had to repost.





"A United States Marine was attending some college courses between assignments. He had completed missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. One of the courses had a professor who was an avowed atheist, and a member of the ACLU.

One day the professor shocked the class when he came in. He looked to the ceiling and flatly stated, "GOD if you are real then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give you exactly 15 minutes." The lecture room fell silent. You could hear a pin drop. Ten minutes went by and the professor proclaimed, "Here I am GOD, I'm still waiting." It got down to the last couple of minutes when the Marine got out of his chair, went up to the professor, and cold-cocked him; knocking him off the platform. The professor was out cold. The Marine went back to his seat and sat there, silently. The other students were shocked and stunned, and sat there looking on in silence. The professor eventually came to, noticeably shaken, looked at the Marine and asked, "What in the world is the matter with you? Why did you do that?"

The Marine calmly replied, "GOD was too busy today protecting American soldiers who are protecting your right to say stupid stuff and act like an idiot. So He sent me."

The classroom erupted in cheers!

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End of email
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It sure hits all the talking points, doesn't it? Military, academia, atheism, and violence as an answer to difficult questions.

I recently got an email from a student of mine. She was concerned that since I teach a Philosophy class, I would be an atheist, and she was prepared to either drop my class or "turn me in." Apparently, she had a Psychology professor in the past that asked her to examine her beliefs, and it made her very uncomfortable. So now she's on a mission to root out atheists in academia and make sure they all end up losing their jobs.

...and a response... (I particularly like this well stated response)

The story is messed up in many ways.

First, as mentioned by others, the violent act is at odds with the ideals (notice I said "ideals") that are supposedly espoused by Christians and other religionists.

Second, it makes "GOD" look like an incompetent boob, because: (1) he can't multi-task by handling an atheist professor while simultaneously protecting "American" soldiers (forget about non-American soldiers); (2) He doesn't do a very good job of protecting soldiers; and (3) if he really wanted to protect soldiers, he should have prevented the war from breaking out in the first place.

Third, it doesn't pass the smell test. These types of stories all have the same feel to them. I call it the "Reader's Digest feel" because they always sound like something that's a bit too Norman Rockwellish and cartoonish to be true. If anyone had really punched out a professor with enough force to knock him out cold, the professor would be needing serious hospitalization. This story has the professor coming to like something out of the TV shows or cartoons where people are getting hit on the head to knock them unconscious (like it's some kind of on/off switch) and they always come to with nothing more than a headache. It doesn't work that way. When enough force is applied to knock someone unconscious, things like paralysis, broken jaws, broken noses, fractured cheekbones, concussions, etc., are the typical results. The Marine would have been looking at criminal and civil charges.

Finally, if the American soldiers are supposedly "over there" protecting the First Amendment, why the hell is the Marine using violence back home to render it meaningless??"


I recently learned that my youngest daughter has breast cancer. She is Mormon. The whole ward is praying and fasting tomorrow, in her honor. I hope their god is not too busy to listen and act.

Atheist Campaign

Similar to the bus campaign in London; 100 of these signs will be on Seatle buses beginning November. I'm sure it will get the christians in an uproar. However, the point is that the manger and the wisemen have had their time on the buses. It's about time we non-believers had the same opportunity.

The Big Bang

Okay we need a new thread. I have said before that I cannot argue the big bang theory. I don't claim to believe it, but I also don't disbelieve it. I am waiting to see what else is discovered and what new "proofs" become available. I really do not spend a lot of time thinking about how humanity or the universe came into existence. I am certain that I do not believe in a creator beyond that I cannot say any more about it.

How did I come to this place? I asked questions; hard questions. Why can't I see god, why does he let kids get sick and die, why does he allow bad things to happen? Where is he and why is he hiding? Why is the bible so vulgar and cruel if it is the word of god?

I asked my parents, my ministers anyone who would listen. But I soon realized that no one had the answers to my questions. I realized that I would have to find out for myself. So I began to read...everything. I started with the bible and book about how to read the bible, which I received from my minister. The more I read the bible the more disturbed I became. I was only 12 years old. I needed guidance so I went to one of my teachers for help. She could not answer my questions either.

So I went to the library. It was a small library, only one room and the librarian showed me to the 200's where the books on religion are shelved. I finally knew where to find the answers but they were not there.

I came to my disbelief in gods and all things supernatural by reading and studying many materials, including the bible, the book of Mormon, Will and Ariel Durant's History of Civilization, the work of Joseph Campbell and many others.

It was not a pivotal moment it was a slow process and it took years. I continued to go to church until 1991 when I woke one morning knowing that I would never again doubt myself or depend on others for my answers. I made up my own mind.

Richard Dawkins-The God Delusion

I had no idea how powerful this book really is. I read it a few years ago along with several other atheist books but never realized what an impact it had on so many people.

Check out the Converts Corner. Awesome stories of rationality. It gives me hope that so many are finding their way out of superstition and ignorance.

"The most valuable thing you have taught me is that there are people in the world who think rationally, reason justly and don't live in subjugation to superstition. That knowledge alone makes me feel, at times, quite a bit better."

-Stephen "the onus of proof is not on me" H

http://richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner

God Wouldn't Do That!

A frequent commenter in this space, Rick B. made, in part, the following statements (some spelling and punctuation corrections made):

“… I find it funny people … claim, we don’t believe God exists, we don’t believe
God would do this or that.… how can you say, you don’t believe God would do this
or that; you deny He even exists, so why do you care what He would do or not
do.”

I have decided to create a new thread to answer his question. Rick finds it “funny” that atheist would say we don’t believe in God and then that we don’t believe “He” would do that.

He may be right on this point, at least in the literal sense of the statement. However, my statement is somewhat different:

I do not believe in the existence of any god.

Rick provides me with a description of his god and I reject the notion just as I do many others. But the second part of his statement needs some clarification I think because I agree that if you DO NOT believe in something you CAN NOT disbelieve that the thing you don’t believe in would or would not do something.

What should be expressed here is the disbelief that ANY god who COULD create a perfect universe with perfect creatures WOULD do so. And if he/she WOULD do so, there must be a logical explanation.

It makes no logical sense for a god to create a people that he/she requires to worship and obey him/her, and then allow them to do otherwise. I’ve heard that free will stuff but it makes no logical sense.

If I were god I would do it right the first time and have my worshipers at my feet for eternity…why take chances…why wait…why play games with the lives of my perfect creations?

So Rick, I don't "care what he/she does or doesn't do" and I don't believe he/she exist and I don't believe if he/she did exist he/she would do the things you claim.

It makes no sense.

Once more for science!

Being unbusy at work gives me an opportunity to catch up on my blog reading. I just ran across this article. I have often said that the more educated a society the less religious:

...survey, published by the Cambridge University Press.....concluded that "high levels of organic atheism are strongly correlated with high levels of societal health, such as low homicide rates, low poverty rates, low infant mortality rates, and low illiteracy rates, as well as high levels of educational attainment, per capita income, and gender equality."

For all my non believing friends out there; maybe there is still hope...after all we are barely out of the post colonial period!

Consequences.....

Let's start a new discussion, what say you all?

It seems to me that the more we discover in our world, the more we can explain, the less necessary the gods become. If one looks at the reason for religiosity and supernatural belief, it is easy to see why it has been and still is, so popular.

So, here is my topic. How would our country differ if religion was truly placed in the background, becoming the minority of the citizenry, rather than the majority?

The Bible

In a recent discussion with a friend the subject of the bible stood front and center. Because she is a believer, she stated that she believes the bible “completely”.

In a conversation later with a Mormon friend, I mentioned the previous conversation. My Mormon friend stated that only parts of the bible are believable.

So off I go to do what I most enjoy; research.

What I found is interesting in that, like my two friends, it depends on who you ask. Many Christian will state that the bible is not contradictory and others will disagree. I think it is confusing at best and downright ambiguous at worst.

Was Abraham justified by faith or works?
Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory.
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Does God want some to go to hell?
1 Timothy 2:3-4
God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Proverbs 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

These are only a few of the many differences or contradictions I found. What is a believer to do? I’m not a believer but if I were it would be hard to reconcile these ambiguities.

Oh and this one…What’s up with that?

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)
Positive Atheism
Skeptics Bible
Contradictions
BIBLE CONTRADICTIONS - The Truth About Christianity

Baptism for the Dead

I am not ready to die, but then who is? Lately I have had a lot of medical problems and it has brought to the forefront that I am mortal! One day, maybe sooner than I think, I will die. I don't think I am so concerned about dying because, after all I have had a very good life. I have some wonderful children with whom I believe the world is in good hands, almost.

My daughter is smart and beautiful and truly works at being a good person; she is Mormon. Therein lies the problem. I'm not and I don't want to be Mormon, even after I die. I feel sure she plans to baptize me as soon as my ashes are cool. Why should I care? I'm not sure but I do. I remember all the Holocaust victims whose families were devastated because the Mormons were adding them to Mormons roles right and left. What right did the church have to do such a thing? I feel that if she is allowed to baptize me that somehow puts me in agreement with her; a position I would never assume in life. I am an atheist and I am comfortable with so being.

How do I tell her that I forbid it?

Mother Teresa, Atheist?

During the summer I read a book by Christopher Hitchens. PositionMissionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice (Verso, 1995). I had heard about the book and I was really angry, because Mother Teresa has always been one of my heroes. I am not religious but I believed that she was one who truly helped the poor. The book opened my eyes. I did more digging and learned that she had billions of dollars in banks all over the world and yet people were dying in her facilities for lack of proper medicine and care. Hitchens accuses her of being political…okay maybe.


Today, thanks to the astute observation of a friend, I find that Mother may have really been an atheist like me. It seems she had doubts and serious concerns about god’s lack of help. But atheist, monotheist or…whatever she was, all that money should be used to help the poor.

MT was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction. And she was a friend to the worst of the rich, taking misappropriated money from the atrocious Duvalier family in Haiti (whose rule she praised in return) and from Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings and Loan. Where did that money, and all the other donations, go? The primitive hospice in Calcutta was as run down when she died as it always had been—she preferred California clinics when she got sick herself—and her order always refused to publish any audit. But we have her own claim that she opened 500 convents in more than a hundred countries, all bearing the name of her own order. Excuse me, but this is modesty and humility?

Mommie Dearest
Letters reveal Mother Teresa's doubt about faith - Yahoo! News
Missionaries of Charity

Does Prayer Work?

Yesterday I ran into my neighbor as I was taking my morning walk. We stopped to chat and knowing that I had interviewed for a particular position, she asked if I had yet heard. I told her I had not and she told me she would pray for me.

Whenever I encounter people who want to pray for me I am inevitably uncomfortable. What should I say? I suppose there are many things I could say but I usually just say thank you. I am honored that she cares enough about me and my needs that she wants to help. I have no belief that it will or even can help my situation but she does. It makes her feel better even if it does nothing for me.

Perhaps, like giving a gift, prayer helps the one who prays more than the object of the prayer.

There is some evidence that prayer does help. In this BBC News article some felt that prayer had helped.

But according to Dr David Laws of the University of Manchester the kind of
prayer which asks God to do something is only relevant if you have a
particular understanding of God.

"It depends on God being an intervening God who breaks
into our world and mops up our mess whenever we make one."

So my conclusion is the same. If god is able to intervene and correct the problems he allowed to occur then what kind of god is he to have let it happen in the first place?

Omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent…really?

If god is all powerful (omnipotent) he able to do away with evil.

If god is all knowing (omniscient) he knows there is evil in the world.

If god is love (benevolent) he would see the evil and defeat it.

Therefore if god is omnipotent and does not defeat evil he is not omniscient or not benevolent. If he is omniscient and does not defeat evil he is not omnipotent or not benevolent. If he is benevolent and does not defeat evil he is not omnipotent or not omniscient.

I stumbled across this site here . Although this is an old argument it is worth revisiting.
As I study and move along on my journey I find more questions than answers.

God vs God or Truth vs Truth

"The true value of a man is not determined by his possession, supposed or real, of Truth, but rather by his sincere exertion to get to the Truth. It is not possession of the Truth, but rather the pursuit of Truth by which he extends his powers and in which his ever-growing perfectibility is to be found. Possession makes one passive, indolent, and proud. If God were to hold all Truth concealed in his right hand, and in his left only the steady and diligent drive for Truth, albeit with the proviso that I would always and forever err i n the process, and to offer me the choice, i would with all humility take the left hand."
--Gotthold Lessing, Anti-Goeze(1778)

I have, for sometime now, been a daily reader and sometime commenter on Mormon Coffee. My daughter became Mormon a few years ago and it has disturbed me greatly; thus the search for understanding.

I have come to the conclusion that the evangelicals have a very mean and vindictive god while the Mormons see a god as almost an aside to their religion. Both camps make very interesting arguments but neither is convincing; I'm still an atheist for like Lessing I would still chose the left hand.