Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith,- Dan Barker
then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits.
Last night I watched several episodes of The Athesim Tapes. If you aren't familiar with them they we done by Jonathan Miller for the BBC. He interviews several scientist and avowed atheist and theologians. He is a terrific interviewer but I kept wanting him to ask about faith. He asked for a definition of atheism but not faith....so I am still wanting.
What is it? How can you explain it? How is it defined?
23 comments:
The quote you give by Dan about Faith is stupid. I say that because Science cannot Prove Life arose from Non-life, you guys use faith to believe that. So regardless of a person saying I have faith in God, or I have faith that the scientists are correct, either way you have or need faith. Rick b
Again I ask Rick, What is faith? What does it mean to have faith in something?
When I think of science and the scientific method or 5 steps used by most school kids for science fair, I understand what it is:
1. I ask a question to which I want an answer.
2. I do the research on the background.
3. I postulate an idea or hypothesize a result.
4. I test by doing an experiment.
5. I analyze the data and draw my conclusion.
If I have worked correctly my results can be repeated by the next person who asks the same question. What are the steps for faith? How can it be tested?
Interested, I know I did not answer your question. I was only replying to something you said in your comment.
I am curious why you ask what faith is? and how you would define it?
Also you do have faith in things. You have faith in a chair, when you sit down, you have faith it will hold you up, or you would not sit in it.
You have faith in science or you would not trust them.
here is how the bible defines faith, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Now their is a difference between Blind Faith and faith with evidence.
Blind faith is the people who simply believe Life Arose from Non Life. You guys have zero evidence that life came from Poison gas that was struck by lighting.
Then single cell creatures were scratched and those mutations formed eyes and arms and other things to cause life, Yet after a long period of time, it got to the point where these mutations now will kill us.
We have no evidence, but it takes great faith to believe this. Jesus said in the Bible, Many things He did to prove who He was. He said he did lots of things.
Funny how we can say, I never meet George Washington, yet I believe he existed because of the written records. We use History to prove many things happened or people existed. Yet people who reject the Bible toss all this evidence out the window, when it comes to the Bible. Rick b
"I am curious why you ask what faith is? and how you would define it?”
I asked because I really want to know. I want to understand why someone like you has so much and someone like me has none.
“Also you do have faith in things. You have faith in a chair, when you sit down, you have faith it will hold you up, or you would not sit in it.”
It is not faith that the chair will hold me, I have evidence. Even if I have never sat in the chair I expect it to hold me because of past experiences.
“You have faith in science or you would not trust them.”
It is not faith I have in science I have evidence that science works.
“here is how the bible defines faith, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” I have a problem with this statement because as a definition it doesn’t fly. By defining something we must express the essential nature of the thing or a statement of the meaning of the word.
“Now their is a difference between Blind Faith and faith with evidence.
Blind faith is the people who simply believe Life Arose from Non Life. You guys have zero evidence that life came from Poison gas that was struck by lighting.”
Rick, that is absurd. All religious belief is blind faith in that the very essence of belief in God is blind because one cannot see him.
“Then single cell creatures were scratched and those mutations formed eyes and arms and other things to cause life, Yet after a long period of time, it got to the point where these mutations now will kill us.”
Okay you lost me here.
“We have no evidence, but it takes great faith to believe this. Jesus said in the Bible, Many things He did to prove who He was. He said he did lots of things.”
You are correct it does take great FAITH to believe without evidence. That is why I need a definition to better understand why I don’t have it.
“Funny how we can say, I never meet George Washington, yet I believe he existed because of the written records. We use History to prove many things happened or people existed. Yet people who reject the Bible toss all this evidence out the window, when it comes to the Bible.”
Well you lost me again here. The Bible doesn’t compare to the history of this country i.e. George Washington. Our history is evidenced in many ways that are tangible and require no faith because they stand on facts.
Finally Rick, the one problem we have in any discussion is the ground on which we stand: A discourse must begin at the same understanding. What I mean is that in order for us to have a meaningful discussion we have to begin at a point where we agree and then move out from there. My hope was and still is that we can find that point, definition or evidence on which we both agree.
Rick please watch this 10 minute video and tell me what you think?
Anyone else is invited to comment as well.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y
I dont have time right now to go over everything. But the guy doing the video is a moron. He clearly want to believe what he wants to believe.
He said most people never read the Bible, I agree, most have never read the Bible, I honestly do not believe he has read the Bible, I believe he only reads parts and picks what he wants to focus on.
Lets take the Part about not working on the Sabbath. First off, if the guy read the Bible he would now that the 10 commandments were given to the Jews, so if your not a Jew your a gentile. A gentile is a non-Jew.
God did not command the gentiles to follow the laws, only Jews. If you read the Whole Bible, The Jews were greatly blessed for following God, but the gentiles were not.
Then the Bible tells us in the New testament Jesus broke the law according to the religious leaders. Jesus Healed on the Sabbath, and the Jews accused Him of working.
Then we read that the law was put in place to prove we cannot keep the law, Meaning we as humans want to say or claim we are so morally good or righteous in our right.
The law proved we were not righteous, The law was as the Bible says, a hard school teacher. But After Jesus came He fulfilled the law, so now we do not need to keep the law fully to enter heaven. We simply Believe in Jesus.
Interested said I asked because I really want to know. I want to understand why someone like you has so much and someone like me has none.
No matter what anyone gives for an answer on faith, we cannot tell you why you have none, Only you can answer that.
Interested said “You have faith in science or you would not trust them.”
It is not faith I have in science I have evidence that science works.
Like I said, Creationists use Science to prove their side, so in a way Science cannot prove everything. Science cannot prove life arose from Non-life, so as the Scientists in the movie Expelled said, they simply have faith it happened and they now base their belief from the point of view, life was here, so thats blind faith.
Tell me how it's not blind faith, Tell from from Science, and provable science, How did life get on this planet? If the "Great minds" From expelled can only come up with, I think it was crystals, then how can you say, we/I have evidence?
It's blind faith, not evidence.
Interested said Rick, that is absurd. All religious belief is blind faith in that the very essence of belief in God is blind because one cannot see him.
Not all faith is blind, I see evidence for the Bible, use the Jews for example. They were dispersed from their home land all over the entire world for about 2,000 years.
They are now back as a major people nation, all nations after 300 years at best of being dispersed simply disappear, they assimilate into the nation that took them over or if they moved because of a natural disaster or something.
Only the Jews have come back after 2,000 years, still in their homeland, still speaking their native language. That to me is one evidence. Then we have the dead sea scrolls.
Interested said “Then single cell creatures were scratched and those mutations formed eyes and arms and other things to cause life, Yet after a long period of time, it got to the point where these mutations now will kill us.”
Okay you lost me here.
According to Some Evolutionists, Not all but some, After the Big Bang happened, supposedly the life that arose was some form of single cell creatures.
These creatures got a little scratch that over time mutated into Eyes, Fins, Skin, Feathers, Etc. Yet again, Blind faith, since Science cannot prove this. Then Some believe Fish manged to move from Water to land, Yet again Blind faith. If we have a fish pulled from the water and put on dry land, it dies, not grows lungs and goes from breathing oxygen in water, to now breathing Oxygen in the air.
I will post more later on the Video, since I gotta go to work. But I at least posted my thoughts on part of it for now.
I'm home from work, I will watch more tomorrow but want to address these things.
Interested said Rick, that is absurd. All religious belief is blind faith in that the very essence of belief in God is blind because one cannot see him.
Belief in God is not blind simply because we cannot see him.
We have evidence, if people choose to reject the evidence that is their fault.
I cannot see, feel, taste, touch or handle gravity, yet I know it exists. I cannot see you but I know I am talking with someone. You believe in evolution despite the evidence.
You might say, Science proves some points, but it cannot prove all points, so in reality it does take faith to some degree to believe in it. Like I said, Id you can prove Life arose from Non life via the great bang, then your doing what many "great minds" Failed to do.
So no faith in God is not blind.
I spoke on using History to prove the Bible, Interested in turn said The Bible doesn’t compare to the history of this country i.e. George Washington. Our history is evidenced in many ways that are tangible and require no faith because they stand on facts.
You point does not hold up and here is why, Just because we use United States History, means nothing. Their are many people alive today who study History from 1000's of years ago, at best the US has only been around for less than 250 years. Yet many people study History from 1000's of years ago and look to foreign country's.
Why is it many people and schools today can look to history and believe it, but the history has nothing to do with the US? Like Pyramids or ancient Cities for example? We believe that these places and people existed, yet when we use the same type of evidence to prove the Bible and places, it gets tossed out the window.
So In my mind, many evidences exist, but people so want to deny the Bible they will toss the evidence out the window.
One thing I posted on before was two guys who read the Bible, They read the account About the Apostle Paul who was ship wrecked. The Ship he was on they tossed two anchors over board.
They used the Bible and found these two anchors. If The Bible is not real or cannot be trusted, How could they use the Bible and Find these Two Anchors? They Even wrote a book about them and had them cleaned up and Gave them to the president of the Island of Malta. Thats faith coupled with evidence.
So two Guys used the Bible to Prove a place existed, yet Science cannot prove Life rose from Non-life, So I have Evidence with Faith, You have faith with out Evidence. Seems My faith is not Blind since I have Evidence, but your faith is Blind since you have no evidence. I would love your thoughts on this. Rick b
Hey Interested,
I live in St Paul MN, We received a light dusting of snow today, so I am weather proofing my house, I will reply to the video later.
I do want to add though I am honestly glad that video exists. I know your wondering why. Because it proves just how full of crap the majority of people who deny God exists really are.
Here is why. 1. Many Atheists claim the Bible is false, they ask for evidence, But how many honestly have read the Bible from Cover to Cover? That I cannot answer. But If they have never read the entire Bible every single page and every single line, How can they Really Honestly know if it is bogus as they say.
I know their are many Blogs and websites that exist and provide lazy people with verses that they believe refute the Bible. I say lazy because these people only want to see these verses and never actually read the Bible for themselves.
Jesus said and many prophets and apostles said that many scoffers would come along and say the Bible is false and God is false. I know this is not evidence to you, but these blogs are doing exactly as the Bible said.
I find it really funny how people who deny God claim they looked into the evidence, yet many themselves have never read the Bible. Why do people claim it is false, but never really read it to find out? Lets say you tell me about a blog/website or even book, and I honestly say, I do not want to read it, I dont want to read it because it's crap.
You would say, how can you say it's full of crap if you never read it. It either works both ways or it does not. Then lets say this guy who made the video could honestly say, He read the bible from cover to cover then made the video, He is still being dishonest.
He is being dishonest because, he leaves out of the video the answers to the questions. Like how I said, The laws were given to the Jews, not the Gentiles. Then if you read the new testament, Jesus came to fulfill the law, and Jesus said the new way is Love. If you Love God and you love your Neighbor you Fulfill the Law. So I keep the entire law if I love God and love my neighbor, But yet this guy does not tell people that.
So that shows either He never read the Bible and is ignorant, or he is a liar and deceiver by leaving out certain info. Rick b
Ok, I watched the Video. Let me say again, That guy is a mormon who I would guess never read the Bible.
First off, Those verses are not speaking about the entire world, they were for the Jews.
2nd. Read the Bible, You find case upon case where non Jews are not following the Laws of God and God does not punish them, That proves this guy is a mormon.
Then You can read the Bible Before the laws were created along with the nation of Israel. Take the Flood of Noah. God did not simply wipe off everyone in a day or two, God waited for over 200 years while Noah built the ark and warned everyone for 200 plus years.
God was showing grace for people.
Read the account in the OT, Where God punished the people of Egypt, If the Pharaoh let the Jews Go they would have never been punished, but they were using Gods people as slaves. Yet God kept bringing punishment upon punishment, If they let the slaves Go free, God would have stopped.
But they Did not. Read the Account of the Bible with Jonah. Jonah got mad at God for sparing the people, God rebuked Jonah for wanting 1000's put to death, including unborn and new borns. So God showed grace and mercy to these people.
These examples prove that the laws only were for Gods people not everyone, And shows this guy is either a liar for leaving this out, or a complete mormon who did not know this because he never read the Bible. Rick b
Well I have to say that I have never heard an explaination like yours. Let me see...are you saying that some of the bible is not for gentiles and that they have no obligation to follow its law? If that is the case then why does the Christian bible includwe such? Wouldn't it confuse believers who read the bible?
Interested I see your not bringing up much of what I addressed. Any Reason?
Your not telling me about Blind faith that you have to believe why Science is your god, But science cannot prove the big bang, thats belief. Or Science cannot prove life from non life, thats blind faith.
You never addressed the issue of why the answers to that guys video are in the Bible, yet he either lies and misleads people by not telling them, or he never read the bible. You never said if you have read the ENTIRE BIBLE, every Page every verse. If not, then how come you can say it is false, but then expect believers to look into every possible point on evolution, otherwise their being liars or worse for not looking into the evidence?
Then your question to me only shows you never read the Bible, Maybe glanced over it. In the OT the laws were given to Jews, Not Gentiles. Yet Gentiles could convert to the Jewish faith and follow the laws and be blessed.
But now if you read the NT, After Jesus came, Jesus fulfilled the law, He did what no human could do. Jesus also said that if we Love God and love our neighbor We Fulfill the Entire law. So we keep the law by doing those things.
Do A word study in the Bible on the word LAW. You will see, no man can keep the entire law, in the NT God does not view us as Jews verses Gentiles, We are now one body. Man views us as Jews vs Gentiles just ask any good Jew, But God does not view us that way.
Then you said, you have never heard an explanation like mine. This again proves you dont know or read the Bible. Instead of asking people what are your thoughts on the Bible, then agreeing with the view that you like the best, read the Bible and see what it says. You dont have to like what it says, or even agree with it, but at least read it and see what God says, not man. Rick b
Okay Rick I will try to address your questions.
"Interested I see your not bringing up much of what I addressed. Any Reason?"
I have no reason not to address them but I thought I had….
"Your not telling me about Blind faith that you have to believe why Science is your god, But science cannot prove the big bang, thats belief. Or Science cannot prove life from non life, thats blind faith."
Science is NOT my god, I don’t have a god. I have never argued for or against the big bang theory although I think it makes better sense than creation by a designer/creator.
"You never addressed the issue of why the answers to that guys video are in the Bible, yet he either lies and misleads people by not telling them, or he never read the bible. You never said if you have read the ENTIRE BIBLE, every Page every verse. If not, then how come you can say it is false, but then expect believers to look into every possible point on evolution, otherwise their being liars or worse for not looking into the evidence?"
I did not and do not argue for the guy who did the video but he is truthful in his quotes. I have read the entire bible and I have little to say about its value. The video states that the bible is repulsive and I agree. The god described in the bible is simply an awful rendition of godhood.
"Your question to me only shows you never read the Bible, Maybe glanced over it. In the OT the laws were given to Jews, Not Gentiles. Yet Gentiles could convert to the Jewish faith and follow the laws and be blessed."
I really have never heard any minister state that any part of the bible applied to one group and not another only that it applied to those who wish to follow him…but I’ll take your word for it.
"But now if you read the NT, After Jesus came, Jesus fulfilled the law, He did what no human could do. Jesus also said that if we Love God and love our neighbor We Fulfill the Entire law. So we keep the law by doing those things."
I can’t argue here because what interests me is the horrible language and the cruel way god of the bible treats his “people”.
"Do A word study in the Bible on the word LAW. You will see, no man can keep the entire law, in the NT God does not view us as Jews verses Gentiles, We are now one body. Man views us as Jews vs Gentiles just ask any good Jew, But God does not view us that way.
I absolutely agree that no one could keep all the laws stated or commanded and most are rather ridiculous anyway.
Then you said, you have never heard an explanation like mine. This again proves you dont know or read the Bible. Instead of asking people what are your thoughts on the Bible, then agreeing with the view that you like the best, read the Bible and see what it says. You dont have to like what it says, or even agree with it, but at least read it and see what God says, not man. Rick b"
Well, again Rick, I have read it and I not only don’t like what it says in many places, I don’t take it as literally the word of god. It was written by men…in many cases from accounts handed down for generations….not first hand witness.
Interested, you said you never clearly took a side on the big bang. Do you mind stating exactly what it is you do believe?
I know what you dont believe, but can you share what it is you do believe in, or what position you hold. Rick b
A statement about faith: Found on another blog. This is good reasoning and better said than I was able.
"Faith: believing in the absence of evidence. In the real world, faith is a stepping stone to knowledge. You act on faith until the true principle pans out. If it doesn't pan out, you throw it away. In the church, you are told to keep believing even as the evidence against it continues to pile up. If a principle or truth you are testing by faith doesn't pan out in the first 5 tries, you can generally throw it out.
At a certain point, faith becomes true knowledge or, if the thing is false, you either toss it or get forced into a cycle of willful ignorance and blind obedience. When TBMs are encouraged to have child-like faith, they are really being told to turn off their brains and not question. In my opinion, it is nearly impossible to get the right answer when you turn off your brain and stop questioning. The more faithful you are, the more faithful you become in a deepening cycle. It can easily last your whole life and become stronger and unbreakable as time goes by.
Faith and a lack of intelligence go together. Knowledge leads to intelligence. Faith in spite of knowledge leads to cog-dis. Intelligence and experience form wisdom.
You can't draw knowledge, intelligence, or wisdom from the well of faith. Faith is the first baby step of advancement, but many people never get past it."
So that last post on faith does apply to you then. It fits the lack of evidence for the big bang and evolution. You have zero evidence, yet you believe by faith. Science cannot prove it, and the so called "great minds" of science even admitted as much in the movie, No intelligence required.
Why do you inset on saying stuff like this about my belief or faith, when you know that it also applies to you and what you believe, and you know as well as I do, you cannot prove or tell me I am wrong, because you know science cannot prove your belief correct. Rick b
Damn, Rick how many ways can I say what I believe and don't believe? The big bang...I have said I DON'T KNOW, I am not qualified to argue it. And I don't care what you believe but when you try to get me to believe it you need to provide more than faith and bible quotes.
You never answered me about the other gods.
Interested, Boy you sure love to slam faith, but yet when it comes to what you believe it takes faith since you cannot prove what you believe.
As to other gods, God in the Bible said he is the only one, and their are no others. So I believe Him, and their are no others. Rick b
I slam all religion for MYSELF. I think it is dangerous because of previously stated reasons. I have stated what I believe, in fact quite clearly. Actually, it isn't belief at all. I think I could safely say that the things I stated in "This I Believe" I really KNOW. There is no faith involved. I really do not know what you want me to say. I really have said about all I can about it. What is left to say?
I looked up the definition of the word faith. Here it is:
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Now INT:
I'm sure you will jump all over definition 2b. I would expect nothing less ;).
Absolutely...the definitions are good so why do people continue to have FAITH in things they cannot prove? Because humanity is needy and irresponsible. We don't want to be at fault for our shortcomings. Faith in a higher power takes the burden off our shoulders and puts it on an imaginary giant in the sky.
Intellectual responsibility requires answers. I have always asked the questions about god, faith, miracles etc. I have only matured enough intellectually, in the last several years to be ready for the answers.
Interested, How can you say you do not have faith? You might not have faith in God or a god, but you have faith. Your faith is in science despite the fact that science CANNOT PROVE much of what you believe, As I said, even the "great minds" admit they cannot prove what they believe.
So it all boils down to faith. You said, people continue to have faith in things they cannot prove. Well you admitted their is no proof for the big bang or life from non life, yet you still believe that happened. so explain how you have zero evidence, you still believe it, but yet thats not faith? That makes no sense. Rick b
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