Matthew Arnsdorf · Berea, Kentucky
Your Bible states that atheists are fools, yes. However, you have no evidence outside of your own Bible (as Christianity has no basis outside its own holy book) to back up such a claim. Christians only believe in Christianity "for the Bible tells me so."
To blanket-sweep atheists as fools is to ignore the inescapable fact that people who entrust their entire lives to a series of books put together by oppressive governments in the name of God are actually disallowing themselves to live--a rather foolish act in any educated person's opinion.
The Bible also states that God loves all mankind and yet, simply for being born as sinners (i.e., apparently not intelligently designed), are condemned to death (Romans 3:23 and 6:23). The evidence that God loves all mankind is apparent in that he had his own son slain in a pretty nasty m...anner to cover the sins of humanity. At first glance, that's sweet and all, but if that's how he treats his own son, how can we expect to be treated?
If you would not mind thinking for yourself while you read the Bible, you'll find it is replete with gaps in stories, contradictions, unacceptable cultural norms, and ultimately a God who is unworthy of worship from anyone. Genesis 1 and 2, for example, from the outset give two totally different creation myths. Read closely and use your brain; stop parroting what others have told you is right and determine for yourself what is right.
The Christian version of the fate of my eternal soul is a wee bit secondary to immediate considerations in THIS life on EARTH and will remain so until I've been given sufficient reason to believe a fiery place of physical torment is going to make my non-physical soul miserable and it is more desirable to spend eternity with a mass-murdering split-personality maniac who kills his kid because he likes creatures he made with dirt.
Christian theology makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and there is no actual evidence to support any of it. It also rips off theologies of ancient pagans, even taking the festival of Yule to be the traditional birth date of Jesus and the fertility celebration of early spring, often called Ostara for western pagan cults, to be the time of Easter.
I will grant you that the conclusions I drew in this comment are, of course, only my opinions, but unlike you, I backed them up with actual examples rather than spouting off ignorant nonsense.
If you cannot engage in civil, intelligent discussion, why are you here?
To blanket-sweep atheists as fools is to ignore the inescapable fact that people who entrust their entire lives to a series of books put together by oppressive governments in the name of God are actually disallowing themselves to live--a rather foolish act in any educated person's opinion.
The Bible also states that God loves all mankind and yet, simply for being born as sinners (i.e., apparently not intelligently designed), are condemned to death (Romans 3:23 and 6:23). The evidence that God loves all mankind is apparent in that he had his own son slain in a pretty nasty m...anner to cover the sins of humanity. At first glance, that's sweet and all, but if that's how he treats his own son, how can we expect to be treated?
If you would not mind thinking for yourself while you read the Bible, you'll find it is replete with gaps in stories, contradictions, unacceptable cultural norms, and ultimately a God who is unworthy of worship from anyone. Genesis 1 and 2, for example, from the outset give two totally different creation myths. Read closely and use your brain; stop parroting what others have told you is right and determine for yourself what is right.
The Christian version of the fate of my eternal soul is a wee bit secondary to immediate considerations in THIS life on EARTH and will remain so until I've been given sufficient reason to believe a fiery place of physical torment is going to make my non-physical soul miserable and it is more desirable to spend eternity with a mass-murdering split-personality maniac who kills his kid because he likes creatures he made with dirt.
Christian theology makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and there is no actual evidence to support any of it. It also rips off theologies of ancient pagans, even taking the festival of Yule to be the traditional birth date of Jesus and the fertility celebration of early spring, often called Ostara for western pagan cults, to be the time of Easter.
I will grant you that the conclusions I drew in this comment are, of course, only my opinions, but unlike you, I backed them up with actual examples rather than spouting off ignorant nonsense.
If you cannot engage in civil, intelligent discussion, why are you here?
22 comments:
The Bible is not the only place that states that those who say there is no Creator is a "fool."
Anyone who considers that scientific facts available to us is left with no other conclusion. For example:
. Either matter is eternal (both science and philosophy show that it is not and cannot be eternal) OR
. The Creator of matter is eternal
Since the answer cannot be the former it seems that only a fool would say that everything material can come from nothing material by no cause.
At one point matter / energy did not exist. That means that there could not have been a material / natural / scientific cause that brought the material universe into existence.
Any person who says that the universe did not have a cause which existed outside of nature and is transcendent to nature is both wrong and extremely foolish.
I will reply next week. I was supposed to work from 8am till 3pm but I was their from 8am till 8pm.
Then Sat and Sunday I work from 8am till 11pm. So I dont have time to reply right now.
The article says a series of books put together by oppressive governments in the name of God
Where did this info come from? The Bible was written by 40 single authors who lived over 1,000's of years over many continents and many never meet each other.
The article says The Bible also states that God loves all mankind and yet, simply for being born as sinners (i.e., apparently not intelligently designed), are condemned to death (Romans 3:23 and 6:23).
People want to claim we are not sinners by nature, yet they cannot seem to explain Human nature and things like Why does every human do things like, Like, cheat steal Etc.
No one can honestly say, they have ever meet a person who is so perfect, that person never got mad, lied, cheated, thought a angry thought like, I wish that person was dead, or even did something like breaking the speed limit.
Not only do we have a sinful human nature and it's proven, but we see it in little children and kids.
We teach teach kids to share, say yes, play nice, etc. Kids by nature from birth say no, yell, lie, fight, Etc.
Add to that, I said this before and will remind everyone. Their was a TV show a few years back called, Kid Nation. Even Before that show came out, People like Psychologists were drooling over that show, They said this would prove Kids are not sinners by nature.
Sadly for them, that show was a slap in their face and such a huge embarrassment and a black eye to them, that they never ran a season two. Do you know how the show ended? All the kids burned the town to the ground. It was so bad that you cannot find the final episode on the internet anywhere.
So please explain how we are not sinners as the Bible says.
The article says
The evidence that God loves all mankind is apparent in that he had his own son slain in a pretty nasty m...anner to cover the sins of humanity. At first glance, that's sweet and all, but if that's how he treats his own son, how can we expect to be treated?
Here is one of the things that People get wrong again. The Bible tells us That Jesus (The Son) Willingly Choose to die for us, God did not say, Son, I will kill you to save the human race. Jesus choose to do it for us, He did not have to do it.
That would be like have a solider Throw himself upon a bomb to save his fellow soliders vs having someone shove him on the bomb and saying he gave his life for his friends.
Jesus also said in the Bible, I gave my life and no one can take my life from me.
"Where did this info come from? The Bible was written by 40 single authors who lived over 1,000's of years over many continents and many never meet each other."
The books of the bible are only a part of the scriptures available at the time the bibles was compiled. You are correct that they are books written by different authors but they are not the only books that were considered scriptural. I will leave it to you to research the origins of the bible but it was definitely put together by men who had alterior motives. Look up Constantine,
Nope! Nobody here claimed we are not sinners. For one thing I do not belive in the concept of sin. I think the point of this article and the statement
"The Bible also states that God loves all mankind and yet, simply for being born as sinners (i.e., apparently not intelligently designed), are condemned to death (Romans 3:23 and 6:23)."
is that according to your bible god loves all mankind and yet is willing to punish his own creation for just being what he created. Don't come at me with that "free will" crap because that makes no sense. If we were created in god's image and go is perfect then we should be perfect and if we are not perfect either we are not created in god's image or he is not perfect.
Children are blank slates when they are born..they are influenced by the environment around them. They have no concept of right or wrong until they are taught it.
However, I do think that there is an inherent good in all humans. I know too, that it is a large debate "Nature/Nurture" that may never be sufficiently settled.
John 3:16 says that god gave his only son....but again I ask shere is the sacrifice? If your bible is to be believed he rose and went to sit at the right hand of god to rule the universe and beyone. Think about that in a rational way...it is not a sacrifice if you don't give up anything.
The soldier you mentioned, who threw himself on the bomb...well he is dead...that is a sacrifice and if I may say one that deserves not only honor but out and out worship.
You claim since God could come back from the dead that means it was not a real sacrifice. Here is what the dictionary says about Sacrifice.
sac·ri·fice
[sak-ruh-fahys] Show IPA noun, verb, sac·ri·ficed, sac·ri·fic·ing.
noun
1.
the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage.
2.
the person, animal, or thing so offered.
3.
the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.
4.
the thing so surrendered or devoted.
5.
a loss incurred in selling something below its value.
EXPAND
verb (used with object)
7.
to make a sacrifice or offering of.
8.
to surrender or give up, or permit injury or disadvantage to, for the sake of something else.
9.
to dispose of (goods, property, etc.) regardless of profit.
10.
Baseball . to cause the advance of (a base runner) by a sacrifice.
11.
Baseball . to make a sacrifice: He sacrificed with two on and none out.
12.
to offer or make a sacrifice.
I know you wont agree, and probably dont care, but the dictionary does not say, God dying for us and coming back from the dead is not a true sacrifice.
God tells us in the Bible, One way He will prove He is God, is He will die for us and come back from the dead 3 days later. Not one religious figure ever to live, out side of Jesus has ever claimed to allow people to kill him and the will rise from the dead to prove they are who they say they are.
Also have you read every account in the Bible about what Jesus went through when He was killed?
They put a bag over His head and beat Him in the face. They Ripped his beard out of His face, They whipped him so badly it removed His flesh from his body. No movie could portray what He went through, It would be so graphic it could not be made.
How is He being so brutally tortured not a "real" sacrifice. Then the Bible tells us, for all of eternity He will have the scares on His body, So He in fact paid a price He did not have to and yes it was a sacrifice.
Interested said
Children are blank slates when they are born..they are influenced by the environment around them.
If this is true, Then parents must always be saying No, and never sharing and showing their kids this is what life is like. Have you ever meet a child, or parents that had a child where the child or the parents have said of the child, Wow my child is so perfect, they always share, I tell them dont do something and they always listen and always obey, never happened and never will.
If kids are blank slates and a product of their environment then what does that say about the parents of the Kids on the TV show, Kid nation? All the kids burned the town to the ground and destroyed and ran-sacked the entire town before burning it.
Wow those must be some horrible parents to raise kids like that. If we are not born sinners, how can all of this be explained? The only way to explain it is to blame the parents, and if you say the kids are products of their environment, Then it stands to reason the parents are at fault. If they are at fault, where did they learn that? From their parents. Thats really sad.
Interested said I will leave it to you to research the origins of the bible but it was definitely put together by men who had alterior motives. Look up Constantine,
Constantine was not a true and real believer in Jesus, The men you claim had alterior motives vs who the men were that wrote the Bible does not line up. Like it or not, If your going to claim the authors of the Bible had alterior motives then the burdon of proof is upon you to back it up.
I can read the Bible and see and read what it says. I dont know since you did not state and neither has anyone else, what you feel these men's motives were. But from what I read in the Bible, I can read what these guys were teaching and were about. I dont see evil motives like your implying.
I see people saying, Love God, Love your neighbor, If we do not have love, we dont know God and are liars. How is saying Love....
an evil thing?
I don't think I was clear in what I said. I was not speaking of those who wrote the books in the bible, I was speaking of those who put it together. At the time the bible as we know it, was compiled there were many "sacred" texts. There was a lot of fighting among the "Christians" of the time. As I understand it, many different sacred texts were available and Christians did not all use the same scriptures. The compilation of the bible was an attempt to unify christianity and stop the fighting. The books that were chosen to be included because the messages, in some way, lined up with the goals of those who chose them. My point here was to state the arbitrary nature of the choosing.
Reading the bible will not satisfy a questioning mind because there so little that is made clear and in addition there are few if any, other sources for the events in the bible. The places do exist but as we have discussed before, there is no evidence for many of the events. The bible is one source for the divinity of Jesus but it is interesting that no other contempory writer mentions him. You might , as you have done before mention Josephus but it is likely that the one short passage about a man named Jesus was added by later Christian to the writings of Josephus.
I am not familiar with the TV show you mentioned but I did not say that parents were to blame for what their children do. What I said is that children are a product of their environment in addition to their inherited traits. The environment includes everything and every person that comes in contact with that child. The simplest statement by even a stranger can have a profound effect on a child.
And by the way, the first word a child learns is no...why because that is what they hear most. As parents we are constantly trying to protect our kids and that more often than not means saying no,no honey, that can hurt you or no, no honey that is not nice.
I am a little out of order but I want to address your comment about Sacrifice. I don't understand why you feel that because the dictionary DOESN'T say something make it true. The dictionary provides an explaination or difinition of what a word means not what it doesn't mean.
Interested said What I said is that children are a product of their environment in addition to their inherited traits.
So do you feel kids who do evil things, or just being bad in General like lying or stealing an "Inherited trait"?
Interested said
I don't think I was clear in what I said. I was not speaking of those who wrote the books in the bible, I was speaking of those who put it together. At the time the bible as we know it, was compiled there were many "sacred" texts. There was a lot of fighting among the "Christians" of the time. As I understand it, many different sacred texts were available and Christians did not all use the same scriptures. The compilation of the bible was an attempt to unify christianity and stop the fighting. The books that were chosen to be included because the messages, in some way, lined up with the goals of those who chose them. My point here was to state the arbitrary nature of the choosing.
We can go back in history and read what was written and line it up with what we have today and see that it matches.
Just on the NT alone we have around 40,000 manuscripts that date back almost 2,000 years.
Then with the OT we have the dead sea scrolls, and they have proven that the Bible we have today lines up with what was written over 2,000 years ago. We cannot do this with any other work of antiquity.
Interested said
Reading the bible will not satisfy a questioning mind because there so little that is made clear and in addition there are few if any, other sources for the events in the bible. The places do exist but as we have discussed before, there is no evidence for many of the events. The bible is one source for the divinity of Jesus but it is interesting that no other contempory writer mentions him. You might , as you have done before mention Josephus but it is likely that the one short passage about a man named Jesus was added by later Christian to the writings of Josephus.
It seems not everyone would agree with you on this, Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel are two big name people who was a lawyer and a journalist who both claim they were atheists who set out to prove the Bible was false, but both said the evidence was so over whelming they gave their life to Jesus.
Josephus Flavius, A.D. 37-100 Evidence to prove crucifixion out side of the bible. He even wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus and mentions pilot. He also mentions Jesus rising from the dead.
This guy also is not a Believer in Jesus, and he mentions Jesus, Eusebius of caesarea
Then I mentioned this guy before, Tactius the roman historian
Thats three people that are not Believers in Jesus but all mention him and thats only 3 people, but their are more. So yes we have evidence from sources outside of the Bible.
I won't speak to the specific traits as I am not qualified...my point was and is that children are not born evil i.e. "original sin". Sin is a religious term and children must learn it to feel guilty of it.
The two you mention who were atheist turned Christian may have found "evidence" but there are hundreds who have found the bible immoral, disgusting and poorly written.
Interested said
I won't speak to the specific traits as I am not qualified...my point was and is that children are not born evil i.e. "original sin". Sin is a religious term and children must learn it to feel guilty of it.
Sin is not a religious term, it's an old archery term, that means, missing the mark.
You can say your not qualified, but we have thousands of people, both professionals and teachers or wanna be's that are called shrinks, or doctors, or psychologists that make lots of money every year trying to figure out why people do dab things and are prone to do them.
I have a friend who is 50 years old, he said when he was growing up, he was such a trouble maker at the age of 5 and up that he would get into lots of trouble. He said these Shrinks would blame his bad behavior as bad potty training.
He said you can go back and read books by Dr Spock who mention this. So I guess since people dont want to say we are born bad, lets blame it on poor potty training.
Kids kill kids in schools shootings. Many men are in jail for rape, murder, etc.
Many people every year kill and are never caught, hit and run drivers, Lying, stealing, you name it. Many are caught some are not. Men cheating on their wives, and some times vice versa.
You say kids must be taught to be guilty. so when a man is married or has a girl friend, and he is either cheating on her, or he is viewing porn, more times than not, the man trys and hides it from the women. Why? He knows it will bother her, she hates it, well if it is not a big deal, why is the women mad at the guy for sleeping around on her? or hiding his porn issue? I sense guilt is involved. But thats a learned behavior, so why is all this bad? who teaches the kids to kill, or adults to rape, lie cheat steal? Happens so much and in all countries, if you reject "original sin" then how do you explain all this evil? Not even the "experts" can explain it or agree on it.
Interested said
The two you mention who were atheist turned Christian may have found "evidence" but there are hundreds who have found the bible immoral, disgusting and poorly written.
People say their is not enough evidence to believe, yet these two former atheists felt their was enough. And I have said before, many people really dont care about evidence and no matter what is shown or given they will reject the evidence.
Here is a couple of examples. My Wife Had MS for about 10 years. She went to the doctors, they confirmed she had MS, she was put on drugs, they caused problems with side effects. She was put on a serious of Shots that cost 1,200 a month, after about a year she called it quits, the shots were extremely painful, then she needed a home nurse to hook her up to a I.V that would supposedly help her with her problems and pain from M.S.
The Home IV was so bad with side effects, she went numb and could fell no pain or even any pleasure for an entire month.
She had many doctors and doctor bills. Doctors even told her it will only get worse. Well before we went to Israel, my wife prayed and felt God tell her, Have your husband pray for you in Israel at a certain Body of water and you will be healed. I prayed for her, she was healed.
The Doctors have no idea How or why, they reject God healing her, while admitting after 10 years of bad and only getting worse M.S. she is completely healed.
How I can prove this to anyone who wants to come to my house and go to visit the doctors she had. I cannot prove it over the internet for a few reasons.
1. My wife will not post her private info on the internet.
2. People would simply reject any information I posted as being made up.
But The doctors and family and friends who Know my wife and knew she had M.S. they have seen and heard, and yet refuse to believe.
Now another two examples,
My pastor was trying to start a huge bon-fire with gasoline. He ended up blowing himself up and had 3rd degree burns all over his legs. He was in the burn unit for 2 weeks and they were talking skin grafts it was so bad. He burned all the skin buds right off his legs.
Guess what? He started having new skin buds growing back on his legs. His doctor said that has NEVER happened in history, He is a first to have new skin buds growing back. The pastor told the doctor it was a miracle, The doctor blew his top, swore up and down it was not a miracle. The nurses all said they have never seen the doctor so angry.
The pastor needs to get some papers signed by the doctor for insurance to close the account. The doctor refuses to sigh the paper work, since it would mean saying it was a miracle.
Even to this day, the pastor goes and visits the doctor every few months to get the papers signed and the doctor always gets pissed and refuses to sigh.
So this doctor saw a miracle and is livid and refuses to sigh. Also I cannot prove this on the web, but if someone were to stop by my house, they can go with the pastor when he asks the doctor to sign the paper work and see the doctors reaction.
Then the 3rd one is, the pastors wife had severe fibromyalgia and after many years, I believe around 10, she was also cured as if she never had it, again Doctors and family and friends know about it and many also reject it was a miracle from God.
So this tells me, many people will reject, no matter what the evidence or how much is given.
Interested said but there are hundreds who have found the bible immoral, disgusting and poorly written.
Here are some things the Bible teaches.
2Titus 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
How is departing from iniquity an immoral thing?
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Rom 12:9 [Let] love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
I only posted a few verses, but they all say, love one another, avoid evil, etc.
How exactly is this immoral?
Then why is it people say, the Bible is not real, it is just a book of non-sense and fiction, yet if they believe it is nothing more than fiction and call it immoral, many of these same people read books or watch movies that are far worse and more immoral, than what they claim to find in the Bible. Funny how that works.
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