I have thought about this for sometime. Often my Christian friends will ask me "Why do you care?" so I want to try to answer that now. Not for every atheist because we don't all agree on much but only from my point of view.
First, I care about my friends. If you were being sold a bill of goods by a known con artist, I would not be a very good friend if I did not tell you what I know about the guy. In the end I can't make the decision for you but I do think that it is my responsibility as a friend to provide any information I have which might help you to make a decision.
Second, I care about my country. We have one of the highest crime rates in the Western world and in correlation to that we are the most religious! This country was found on principles of freedom. Europeans, sick of the stifling oppression of the church, sought a new world, a better way of life. Funny that, because now most of Europe is far ahead of us in the peaceful pursuit of happiness. They have lower numbers of religious people and lower crime.
Finally, I care about humanity. As we continue to evolve we learn more about what works to promote peace and well being for ourselves and our fellow humans. Humanity is not perfect and likely will not ever be. We continue to learn through trial and error, through our failures despite best intentions, and through the acquisition of knowledge.
My hope as an atheist is that the myths that have ruled much of humanity will be exposed and that each individual will understand that he is capable of making a difference in the world without superstition and fear.
We have only one lifetime and doing all we can to make it better for ourselves and those who come after is a worthy purpose. What could be better than to know that I have helped someone to think for herself, to give up on fairy tales and seek out knowledge without fear?
26 comments:
Asking questions about the world around you whether it be about God, politics, literature, nature, or anything else you encounter is wise no matter what your walk in life. Asking questions spurs on the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom. We are to be good stewards of our minds, otherwise we are wasting them. I'm glad you look into redefining your beliefs and look to understand the beliefs of those around you. It means you are alive!
Hello Interested.
You have a lot to cover, It will take me a few days, and will not be in any specif order. First I will start with this.
You said Second, I care about my country. We have one of the highest crime rates in the Western world and in correlation to that we are the most religious! This country was found on principles of freedom. Europeans, sick of the stifling oppression of the church, sought a new world, a better way of life. Funny that, because now most of Europe is far ahead of us in the peaceful pursuit of happiness. They have lower numbers of religious people and lower crime.
Here is a link and the article that says otherwise.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html
The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
By James Slack
UPDATED: 18:14 EST, 2 July 2009
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Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.
Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.
The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.
Britain even has a worse violence rate than South Africa
Britain has an even worse violence rate than South Africa (file picture)
The Tories said Labour had presided over a decade of spiralling violence.
In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.
The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:
Cont.
The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.
But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.
In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.
league of shame
The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.
Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.
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'We're now on our fourth Home Secretary this parliament, and all we are getting is a rehash of old initiatives that didn't work the first time round. More than ever Britain needs a change of direction.'
The figures, compiled by the Tories, are considered the most accurate and up-to-date available.
But criminologists say crime figures can be affected by many factors, including different criminal justice systems and differences in how crime is reported and measured.
New Home Secretary Alan Johnson is to make his first major speech on crime today
New Home Secretary Alan Johnson is to make his first major speech on crime today
In Britain, an affray is considered a violent crime, while in other countries it will only be logged if a person is physically injured.
There are also degrees of violence. While the UK ranks above South Africa for all violent crime, South Africans suffer more than 20,000 murders each year - compared with Britain's 921 in 2007.
Experts say there are a number of reasons why violence is soaring in the UK. These include Labour's decision to relax the licensing laws to allow round-the-clock opening, which has led to a rise in the number of serious assaults taking place in the early hours of the morning.
But Police Minister David Hanson said: 'These figures are misleading.
Levels of police recorded crime statistics from different countries are simply not comparable since they are affected by many factors, for example the recording of violent crime in other countries may not include behaviour that we would categorise as violent crime.
'Violent crime in England and Wales has fallen by almost a half a peak in 1995 but we are not complacent and know there is still work to do. That is why last year we published 'Saving lives. Reducing harm. Protecting the public. An Action Plan for Tackling Violence 2008-11'.'
The timing of the Europe-wide violence figures is a blow for Mr Johnson, who will today seek to reassert Labour's law and order credentials.
In his first major speech on crime since becoming Home Secretary, Mr Johnson is expected to promise a concerted crack down on antisocial behaviour.
He wants to set up a website to allow the public to see what is taking place in their neighbourhood, such as the number of louts who have been served with Asbos.
Mr Johnson is also known to support early intervention to stop children going off the rails.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html#ixzz1y6FvgntT
Now I am going to say, This is just my OPINION.
I believe we are in your words, more religious, and as a result we have more crime. I believe and again this is just my OPINION.
I believe we have more crime because we as a society wont do what needs to be done. We fight tooth and nail to not execute people that need to be. We let serious garbage out of jail, like child molesters.
People like the guy in Texas who killed the guy molesting his daughter is treated like a criminal. We have many people in politics who lie, Cheat and steal. And it is people like that, that we simply ignore and allow to stay in office.
We have judges sitting on the bench that are drunks, or do drugs, or molest kids, so when people stand before them, they slap them on the wrist and let them off easy because they do the same things.
@Anakalia..Question everything..accept nothing without evidence keeps me alive, yes! Some days when I feel down or a bit on edge, finding a subject to question spurs me on and keeps me looking forward to new knowledge. Thanks for your comment.
I won't argue what the article states but do keep in mind that what is considered "violent crime" in one country may differ in another. Below are some articles about the correlation betweent religion and crime if you want to do further study just google crime and religion and you will have more reading than you likely will have time for. Look at some countries that have low rates of religion, Japan, Norway, Denmark, and others and compare the rate of crime. Take a look at the prison population and see how many inmates are religious...most. But I do not mean to say that religion causes more crime; my point is that it doen't appear to deter it much.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf
Here is a link to murder statistics by country. It is easy to see that in 2011 the US rate of murder was higher that the UK and significantly higher than Australia, China and Canada. Interesting to say the least..
http://chartsbin.com/view/1454
Here are my thoughts on the issue of high crime and religion.
Let me use small numbers to make this easy, and this is not an accurate number issue, It's only to make a point.
lets say we have 9 religions, all at 100 people per religion, and then 100 atheists.
Thats 1000 people total, and it is 9 to 1 as far as religion vs atheists goes. Well religion or not people are human and commit crimes for various reasons.
It stands to reason that more "religious" people would commit crimes vs atheists, since it is 9-1.
Now about the issue of countries having lower crimes due to less religion, I dont buy the Idea that it is due to lower or no religion.
I believe it is due to stronger punishment. Muslim countries will cut your hand off if you steal something. They will execute you if you kill someone.
Look back some years ago, I covered this issue in a speech class when I was in school.
You can Google this story for more info.
Michael Peter Fay (born May 30, 1975) is an American who briefly gained international notoriety when he was sentenced to caning in Singapore as an 18-year-old in 1994 for theft and vandalism.
(Cont)
Here is a brief over view of the story. This Michael went to a foreign country, broke their laws and was going to get caned something like 39-40 times. I said, good, beat him silly, he asked for it by his actions.
What did he do? he cried and whined and our country got involved and he was only beaten a few times.
How did he repay our country for saving his sorry behind? He came home and vandalized more cars over here.
We are to soft on crime and allow people to get away with crap like this. That's why we have such a high crime rate compared to other countries.
Here's a good one also.
My mom calls me and said, I have jury duty for 30 days. She calls me and said, he was one minor case. A person is in their car, stopped at a red light, obeying all traffic laws and someone rear-ends them. The judge tells the person that was hit, sorry, but you are being held 10 percent responsible simply due to the fact that you were stopped at a red light.
My jaw hit the floor, I said, are you serious? I told my mom, I know I would go to jail for being in contempt of court, but I would get my point across. I said to my mom, I would say to the judge, so you mean to tell me, if I walk up to your bench, reach over and bust you in the mouth, you are held ten percent responsible simply due to the fact that if you were not sitting in this court, I could not punch you in the mouth?
We both know, that is both stupid, and the judge would not be held responsible. Thats like saying that women that are raped, or people who are killed by serial killers or robbers, are partly at fault. Thats stupid, yet we allow this kind of stupid stuff to happen.
Here is another one.
About 5 years ago cops went door to door in my neighborhood handing out information about a level 3 sex offender who moved into the neighborhood. Level 3 in case you dont know is both the worst and means most likely to re-offend.
This guy was living with-in 700 yards of a school, and his child of choice was young girls about the age of 6. That was my daughters age at the time.
Well the info the police gave us said, their will be a meeting at a set time and day at the rec center right down the street from where we lived. It said we can show up, police will be their and we can meet this guy and ask questions.
I told many friends exactly what my plans were, including a friend who is a lawyer and my parents.
This was what I was going to do. I was going to say in front of God and everyone, You touch my kids, and no one will ever hear from you or see you again, and your body will never be found. People will think you went on vacation.
Everyone, even my wife said, Dont do it. I said why? I was told even by my lawyer friend, I will go to jail for making a threat. I said to everyone, are you serious? This guy molests little girls, they move him close to a school with kids, they dont put him in jail, and I will go to jail for saying that? Yes, was the answer from everyone.
I said so be it, I will go to jail and make my point. Well some argue God was watching over me, I said it was just bad luck for me. I showed up a week early to this meeting, I got the date wrong. The next two weeks after that I was going to be out of state on vacation and could not post-pone my trip over this.
That is really sad that I say something like that and I can or will go to jail, yet that piece of garbage can do what he does to little kids, and the judges keep him out of jail. It's stuff like that, that religion has nothing to do with it. It is these pansy waste people who call good evil and evil good. Christians are evil, child molesters are Good.
Rick you are correct the the majority of our country is religious but the statistics do not hold up when looking at prison numbers. I'm not going to take the time to find the sources but I have read many times that the percentage of Atheists in prison is less than 1% of the overall prision population. Again, let me remind you that my point was not and is not that religion causes people to commit crimes. My point is that religion does not appear to deter it much.
Your statement about lower crime rates in less religious countries is again not addressing what I said. First of all muslim countries are quite religious and should not be discussed in this context. I mentioned Australia, China and Canada as having less religion and appear to have less crime. Please take a look again at the map
http://chartsbin.com/view/1454. Look at the murder rates in Norway, Sweeden and Finland. Their populations are over 50% non religious and the rates are miniscule. Those countries also have medical care for everyone, higher education and higher incomes.
I remember the Michael story but I'm not sure what point you are makeing. I think you are speaking to the statement that our country is too soft on crime but again, that isn't relative to my point.
As to you story about the person who was rear-ended being 10% responsible...well that seems unlikely to me as well as illegal. Not to my point but interesting if true and I would certainly like to have the case number to look it up and see what was going on there.
I don't think a single person I know, even remotely, thinks that child molesters are "good". Depending on the state in which they are convicted they have a pretty harsh life even if they are released from prison. In prison, and I have not reference, but I have read that many do not make it out because the prison inmates think they are just about the wort dregs of society an often do away with them before they do their time.
I think your plan was asinine and showed a serious lack of maturity so I'm glad you did not suceed. You could have been writing from prison yourself.
nsysinterested said
I think your plan was asinine and showed a serious lack of maturity so I'm glad you did not suceed. You could have been writing from prison yourself.
I know it would be stupid to do, but I would still do it. I'm glad your honest in telling me it was stupid.
Interested said
My point is that religion does not appear to deter it much.
I remember the Michael story but I'm not sure what point you are makeing. I think you are speaking to the statement that our country is too soft on crime but again, that isn't relative to my point.
I agree with you that religion does not deter crime, I thought I said that already, maybe not. My over all point in everything I said was, we are to soft on crime. You seemed not to understand what I was saying. I was saying the foreign countries that you claim are mainly atheist and not religious and therefore are lower in crimes maybe is true.
I was trying to say, the lower crime is due to the fact that they are so hard on the criminals. Look at some of the old school communist nations have or had atheists as leaders, and they were some of the most brutal and violent leaders these nations have ever seen.
I recall posting info on this on your blog once. We have religious leaders that cry about crime being bad, but then it is the same leaders that fight to let these people go free. So I agree, we have high crime, and it is a result of us being to soft on these people.
Under your topic, "This is a good one" you said to me,
It is not only unfair but ineffective for you to continue to claim that the people you disagree with do not know or do not care what the bible says. Many people who are considered Christians do not agree on the interpetation of the bible
But under this topic you said Not for every atheist because we don't all agree on much but only from my point of view.
Why is it atheists say, Christians cannot agree on things in the Bible, so this must mean they dont know what they are talking about, or it proves them wrong? Yet atheists dont agree with each other, but thats ok.
Ok, now onto the issue of Christians disagreeing with me. For the most part, the vast majority of Christians agree on Major points, like Jesus is God, We are saved by grace alone, Etc.
We disagree on what would be called, Nonessential issues. These are issues that dont effect our salvation. What this means is, If you read the Bible, Jesus said we are saved by grace alone. If we reject His death on the cross we cannot be saved. But if we disagree on can we have long hair or how long is long, or can women be pastors, or can we drink beer and wine, or things like this, we are still saved.
Cont
I feel if People get their facts wrong on what the Bible says, then I can say they are wrong and clueless for a few reasons.
1. Jesus told people they were wrong and in Error of scripture.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Then when someone claims the Bible says....
and I can show they are wrong, because the Bible does not really say that, or they are leaving out info then yes they are wrong.
Also Lots of atheists like to say, The Bible says.....
And this means God said....
and we dont like what the Bible and God said, therefore it make God evil or bad.
The Problem is, Many things that were said or done by people in the Bible were not of God or from God. The Bible does record human error and mistakes. Just because the Bible records someone saying or doing something, Good, bad or ugly does not mean it was of God or said by God.
Read the New Testament, we find Jesus telling the religious leaders they are wrong on many issues, and that many of their traditions are simply traditions of men and the things they say and do are not of God or from God.
When I said that atheist don't agree I was pointing out that there is no dogma, no creed, no atheist bible. Being an atheist is only one thing; we reject a believe in gods. My point about the many interpretations of your bible is that each sect of Christianity interprets as they see fit. When an atheist reads your bible they have no dogma to find, no presented beliefs to substantiate.
"I feel if People get their facts wrong on what the Bible says, then I can say they are wrong and clueless for a few reasons."
When you say they are wrong that is your opinion, your interpretation. Other Christians see their way as the only way to read the bible. Whatever your reasons are, others have different reasons for believing what they do.
Interested,
As I pointed out, Jesus said you do err in your reading and thinking of scripture.
It really is not a matter of people interpret scripture differently, it is a matter of people dont like what it says, or they dont want it to say what they want it to mean.
Here is a few examples.
Mormons believe we must do works to be saved.
But what Did Jesus say?
Jesus said Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Mormons reject this, so do I believe the Mormon prophets or Jesus?
How can you honestly read what Jesus said, and think it means something different.
Many people reject this verse.
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[Treasury of Scripture Knowledge] [Concordance and Hebrew/Greek Lexicon] [List Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries]
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[Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] 1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Lots of people think they are saved and are Christians, and they do these things. Yet they are not saved and will not be, yet they dont like it so they reject these verses.
Will add more later.
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
So can you explain how someone who murders, rapes, robs or any other crime against humanity can get to heaven?
Hello Interested,
Your question about that verse is easy. The Bible tells us that we are ALL law breakers and every single person living is a sinner. We cannot do a single thing to save our selves and enter heaven.
So That verse applies to everyone on of us. We are saved by Grave and not of works. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Nothing we do can save us, we all all doomed. So the good news is, Jesus died for us and we can be saved simply by believing in Him and His death for us on the cross.
We read in the Book of Acts, the Apostle Paul was in Jail and the jailer said to him,
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
People simply dont like this, that is why we have so many religions putting burdens upon people and saying they must do all these works to be saved.
If your a Mormon you must do tons of things and then your still not sure you are saved.
If you follow the Muslims, then again you must do tons of works, and just look at the women. Islam states women are lower than dogs, a women can be beaten simply for burning the toast. Muslim women must wear burka's even if it is 120 degree's out side.
Then men make women dress like that because they feel if the women have less clothes on it could cause a man to stumble, yet it's ok for the man to live in the US where many women walk around with next to nothing on.
The guy cannot control his desires, yet the women gets punished.
Look at the JW's They cannot celebrate Birthdays, or have blood transfusions.
Look at the religion of Scientology. I call that a rich man's religion, in order to move up the ranks you must be rich.
Now many people will say, well I see problems with Christianity.
Here is the thing, their is problems with sinful humans that claim to be Christians, yet if you read the Bible, the message of Jesus is clear, Love God Love your neighbor, and simply believe upon Him to be saved.
I dont need money, My wife is not bound up in a burka, or gets beaten for talking with another man. I could go on.
Now back to the issue of People not agreeing on scripture. The Bible is simple, their is a group of people that call themselves Christians and they are know as Calvinists. Their is way to much to cover here on them, you can google them to learn more.
These guys do not know the bible even though they claim to and their are so many problems with what they believe it's not funny.
Calvinists teach and believe God only died for a select few people, the elect as it is worded. Some Calvinists even go so far as saying, we cannot know who is saved and who is not, we wont know until we die.
Well people can teach this all they want, but it goes against what Jesus said, John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
So know we have a problem, Do I believe Jesus or do I believe a Calvinist? If I believe Jesus, He said He died for everyone, and anyone that believe in Him will be saved.
If I believe the Calvinist Then I cannot be sure if I am saved or not. This is only one problem with Calvinism.
So when people claim, Christians cannot agree on what the Bible says, what it boils down to is, Read the Bible, what does it says? And it is not just a matter of the Bible saying one thing only in one place only.
Here is another example, Many people say, in order to be saved you must be baptized. We I already show Jesus saying Believe in Him and you will be saved. Jesus said the only work is too believe upon Him. The apostle Paul said, Believe and be saved.
So that is 3 different spot never saying we must be baptized to be saved.
Then for people who claim this simply is not enough evidence to make a case, lets add this. Jesus never baptized anyone. If Jesus never baptized anyone, Yet it is a requirement to be saved, then we have a problem.
John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
Then if Jesus did not baptize anyone is still not enough, we read this.
The Apostle Paul said 1Cr 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
If the Apostle Paul does not know how many people he baptized, and then goes onto say, God did not send me to baptize, then I guess baptism is not required for salvation.
So Interested, the Bible is really clear in what it says, it is not so much a matter of do Christians disagree with each other, it's a matter of, do they disagree with Gods word.
If they disagree with Gods word, then they better question their salvation and if they even know Him at all.
Jesus said, Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Many people think they are saved, and they will say, Look, I know Jesus, I am doing good works in His name, or I cast out demons in His name, Or I feed the poor in His name. Yet what does Jesus say to these people, I NEVER KNEW YOU. Wow, Thats tough.
Plus the Bible tells us, Wolves in sheeps clothing and false prophets and teachers will come from with in our own ranks, rise up and device. So yes they come from with in our own churchs and claim to be believers. So how do we know if they are false prophets and teachers, lying to us? We read the Bible and see if what they say and teach lines up with the Bible. So it is easier than you think.
You still have not explained how a murder could go to heaven if it states:
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Is not a murder unrighteous? Is it just to suddenly believe and it's all good with you god? Even if that were true I would call it immoral.
Well, this discussion is going in circles. Using the bible to explain the bible is circular reasoning and will get us nowhere.
It seems to me that you do exactly what you accuse others of doing. You pick the parts that you like to fit what you believe and say you have it right and no one else does. Isn't that what they all believe?
Interested said You still have not explained how a murder could go to heaven if it states:
I did explain it, you some how missed what I said.
I said, that verse is correct, we all are guilty of those things. You cannot find one person alive who has never lied, cheated, stole something, murdered, etc.
The Bible tells us that if we are guilty of breaking even 1 single law, then we are guilty of breaking them all.
So you could say, Rick, I have never committed murder, While you may not have ever actually killed someone, in Gods eyes, if you even lied once in your entire life, you just as guilty of committing murder.
Then as I said, the one and only way, thieves, Child molesters, murders, etc can get into heaven and be saved, is to simply believe Jesus died for us and set us free through his death on the cross.
Now onto the issue of you saying this, Using the bible to explain the bible is circular reasoning and will get us nowhere
How come atheists like to say that, yet in reality we as I have said before use history and have historians that we rely upon even though we were not alive when these things were written.
Examples, You cannot tell me one person you know or ever meet that was alive when George Washington was around. Yet we look to history to prove he existed, we look at things written by him, we look to pictures, stories Etc.
He is not the only person, we do this with people from foreign countries and people that lived 1000's of years ago. It seems we can use these sources to prove all these things in the past happened, except when it come to the Bible. why is that?
Now as far as the Bible goes, it is not one book, or two books, it is 66 books written by 40 different authors that lived 1000's of years apart and lived 1000's of miles apart.
People go to court all the time and use old documents and history to prove their case. Then as I said before and listed, you can look to History and find plenty of evidence that is not in the Bible to prove the Bible, We have the dead sea scrolls, I have been to Israel, seen the people, ate the food, saw places mentioned as evidence.
Now we can look to non Christian Historians that mention Jesus being real and actually existed. Josephus and Tactius the roman historian, these guys are not and never were Christian, They hate Christians. They existed and you can google them. Their are more Non Christian Secular historians that mention Jesus as a real person, rising from the grave.
Many people to this day, sell books by Josephus and study him. Then I have had atheists flat out tell me, even if I could prove God existed, or if I could get Noahs ark and put in in the Macy day parade for all the world to see, they would still reject and deny God exists. So this tells me, many people dont care about any evidence and simply believe what they want.
I have said this before but will say it again.
Lets just say that the Bible was written 100 years ago. It's pretty good how the Bible mentions a coming one world government, and cashless society.
just in the last 30 years plenty of foreign leaders and presidents from our nation have been talking about going this route.
Then add to that, the Bible tells us that the two witnesses will be killed and the entire world will witness this happening. 100 Years ago the technology did not exist for this, but now it does, were all these things simply lucky guesses?
We know the Bible was written longer than 100 years ago. pretty good for getting a lucky guess.
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