Friday, January 14, 2011

Is Jesus against families?

“I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. … He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me.”

When I was a believing Christian this verse always bothered me. It seems like an instigation to create problems in the family. How am I to understand this? How can a god who created us expect us to deny our family in order to follow him?

What kind of god would pit families againist each other?


Rick b said...

This is yet another verse that since people do not understand then it must mean Jesus is evil.

What God is saying is not to deny Family or ignore them, but that He comes First. Examples would be, Are you not reading your Bible and spending time getting to know Him because you would rather Go to a movie with family.

Your not going to Church because your family is atheists and so you would rather stay home with them. You can apply this however you want, but Jesus is not saying to neglect family, as a matter of fact the Bible goes onto say that we need to provide for our family because if we dont we will be worse than an unbeliever.

1Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Interested said...

I guess I will never understand why it is so complicated to understand. If the bible is inspired by god why is it so difficult to comprehend what is meant? Wouldn't it make sense for god to be clear, no grey areas, no ambiguities if he really cares about us and wants us to follow him?

Rick b said...

It's not that it is hard to understand and not clear, it's people choose to not believe it or read it or what anything to do with it.

I was listing to a talk show on the radio the other day, The host was talking about Muslims and the Quran
and the Bible. The caller claimed to be a christian and the host asked him about the things the Bible teaches.

Two things the Host took issue with were in the OT and one thing was in the NT. The caller could not answer any of these things, I got frustrated and said to my wife, what is the deal with people who claim to know the Bible, they cannot answer the vast majority of questions.

So I kept calling the show and finally got through. I told the screen-er I can answer this guys questions, Once I finally got on the show and I started to answer the guys questions, the host put me on hold, rambled on about some stupid non-sence and then hung up on me.

The two things that really pissed me off about this was, This was a conservative talk radio and the host claimed to be a christian, and he asked questions wanting answers. I noticed in life, just because someone claims to be a christian does not make it true, it seems everyone thinks just because we live in the US, must mean your a christian.

I could dress up like a police officer, but that does not make it so. I also notice people ask questions claiming to want answers, but once someone with real answers comes along, then those people then decide they really do not want answers.

I notice people ask questions wanting answers and when people have no answers or ramble on, the person asking the question is happy. Kind of like Al Gore, Everyone now makes fun of him and global warming. As it seems to get colder and colder every year and places that normally never get snow, now are, yet Al Gore avoids the media and refuses to answer the people.

Interested said...

One of the problems with all this is the definition of Christian. I agree with you Rick, many do claim to be Christian and they are anything but. However, that said, I do think that it depends on who answers the question as to what the "truth" is. Each of the many sects of Christianity has a different take on the bible; a different interpretation. That could not happen if it was clear or if god would just choose to show himself and answer the questions from his own point of view; what interpretation he intended.

I know you think you have the right answers but so does the Methodist minister I spoke to and the Catholic priest and the Baptist teacher. They all think they are correct but none agree. How can that be clear?

Rick b said...

I left a reply to your answer and now it's gone, Did it make it to you at all or do I need to re-answer it. Rick

Interested said...

I don't see it. I'm sorry I don't know what happened.

Rick b said...

It was not your fault, It said it was to large but then posted it. It must have posted it only as a review type for me.

Anyway I will re-write what I wrote. I was saying this reply will be rather long since I am giving a few examples and trying to cover a few things you said.

You said Each of the many sects of Christianity has a different take on the bible; a different interpretation. That could not happen if it was clear or if god would just choose to show himself and answer the questions from his own point of view; what interpretation he intended.

Rick b said...

Part 2.

Now I was saying that God spoke very clearly and what it boils down to is, God was clear in what He said in His word, It's more a matter of we as humans do not like what God said, or we dont agree with what God said.

Take women as pastors, The Bible is clear, Women cannot be senior pastors, They can fill all roles except for that. Now many people do not like that, so they decide to make a church where that is allowed, so now we have churchs claiming to be Christians but teaching different things, and they all claim it is from the Bible.

So this is not Gods fault, it is man that is going against God and what He said and taught. Is that Gods fault? Now if someone like you or another atheist says I dont believe in God or the Bible then thats fine, you can believe what you want.

The thing that bugs me is, when people who dont believe the Bible and then go onto say, I dont believe the Bible but, I also dont believe God would say.....

Well the Bible has God saying....

So it should be worded people saying, I dont believe the Bible and I understand God said....

But even though God said....

I still dont like that and dont agree. So fine at least your honest in saying you read God said... and you admit you dont like that teaching.

Part 3 coming.

Rick b said...

Part 3.
Before I forget, the Bible tells us in acts 17:11, to search the scriptures to know if these things are true. We dont simply blindly believe everything a person tells us. We need to search the scriptures to know if these things are true.

Now take the Catholics for example. They claim that priests cannot marry, Yet in the OT It goes into detail about the priests and how they work. No mention ever, saying that priests cannot marry. Also They claim that the apostle Peter was the very first pope and the Pope cannot marry.

Well if thats true we have a problem. We read in the Bible that Jesus healed Peter's mother in-law. Well you cannot have a mother in law if you cannot get married. So if Peter was married then the Catholics got it wrong.

Also the Catholics tell us we cannot eat meat (Beef, pork etc) During Lent. First off, you will never find lent in the Bible. Second, The Bible tells us that people will tell you, you cannot get married and you must abstain from meat. Well that fits the Catholics and Mormons. Catholics say priest's cannot marry and that they cannot eat meat during lent.

Then Mormons say according to the Word of Wisdom You cannot drink certain Drinks and eat meat sparingly. The Bible teaches other wise. So Either God was clear in what He said, or these people, (Catholics and Mormons) Are correct.

Now if you like them dont believe God meant what He said, Or simply choose not to believe what He said, then thats different, but that is not God being unclear or foggy in what He said.

Now their are also churchs out their that say, in order to be a member, you cannot dance, drink or go to the movies. Show me in the Bible where God said that? You cannot, but I can show you in the Bible where People of God danced and Jesus Drank.

These are just a few examples of people, even so called Christians wanting to believe what they want. The Bible even tells us, People will arise even from with-in and in reality be liars and deceivers wanting to lead us astray.

Rick b said...

Let me add another, Take the Catholics for example, They claim we need priests and we must go and confess to them. Well the Bible tells us that their is no mediator between us and Jesus, We can simply go straight to Jesus. Yet the Catholic Church tells us we cannot.

So Again, either Jesus meant what He said, or the Catholic church is right. I choose to take Jesus at his word.

Interested said...

I have a little more research to do before I address the marriage of priest but here a a couple of examples of things that are confusing to the thinking reader.

The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned:Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5

The wearing of long hair by men condemned 1 Cor 11:14

Circumcision instituted:Gen 17:10

Circumcision condemned: Gal 5:2

Interested said...

As for eating meat during lent for Catholics, I think that the idea is one of honor and obedience. To give up something during lent in honor of the sacrifice Christ made on the cross. I don't think it has to be meat it can be anything. I know Catholics who give up coffee or wine or other pleasures during that time. Again, I think you are right that it is not biblical but a matter of honor.

Interested said...

Blessed is the man that feareth
And these two. How can both be correct?

the Lord... Wealth and riches
shall be in his house...
- Psalms 112:1-3

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
- Matthew 19:24

Rick b said...

I dont have a lot of time, so I will reply more later, but as far as this goes.

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
- Matthew 19:24

A camel cannot go through the eye of a needle, but Jesus is saying it is easier for that to happen than for a rich man to enter heaven.

Now Jesus did not say it was impossible, and if you read that scripture, Jesus goes onto say, all things are possible with God.

God is not telling rich people they cannot enter heaven, or even that He does not want them. A rich man came to Jesus and said, what must I do to be saved, Jesus said, do this and this and this, The rich man said, Since my youth I have been doing all of these things.

Jesus then said to THAT RICH MAN, Sell all you have and Follow me. The Rich man left sorrowful. The Rich man did not want to sell everything he owned.

Now people seem to think or some have taught, Jesus wants every rich man to sell everything and thats not true. He was only speaking to that person.

Also the issue with that Rich man and many rich people in general is, They feel they have no need for God, they have wealth to rely on.

You hear stories of people dying calling out to God, even atheists, or you have meet people or heard of people crying out to God in times of great need, they might not follow through, but they say stuff like, O-God, If you help me get out of this tough position then I will do....

Yet they then dont do what they said. You see examples of people in the bible, People who have no money or no way of any help, when things get tough then they call out to God.

Rick b said...

As far as Catholics go, they can not eat meat or not drink or what ever, but God did not command it, and it is only a form of false humility and people do judge you if you do not do this, The bible speaks against it.

Also I do myself follow lent, I tell everyone every year that I give up lent for lent.

People can give up things like meat or drink and think they are doing something for God, but God tells us that what He wants us to do is to believe on Him. That is what He wants us to do, not give up meat or drink. and the verses I give you, it call these things doctrines of men.

That is why we have the problems we do, men and their doctrines.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Shelli said...

You have to take everything in context. If you take it out of context, you make it a pretext. So, the first thing you need to do is read these things in context. The circumcision isn't wrong in and of itself, in Galatians. There was a group of Jews who followed Paul around saying the Gentiles(non-Jews) needed to become Jews, and be circumcised, in order to become Christians. That is why "the Circumcised" are seemingly condemned. It isn't wrong to be circumcised, but that was a Jewish law. It was not something God said Jews needed to do. I hope that answers that question.

Shelli said...

Sorry, I meant it was not something the Gentiles had to do in order to be saved.

rick b said...

Here is one more thing I noticed. Many people forget or ignore the fact that god gave laws to the jews and not to the gentiles.

The law of circumsium was for the jews only and not gentiles. It was one way for people to know you were a jew and not a gentile. It was also a sign of obendice to god. So their is not a problem with this.

But after jesus came along he did away with that because we are now under grace and not the law. The law as the bible teaches could never save us.

It was given to us to show us we could never live up to it, and theirfore we could not save ourselves. We needed a saviour, that's jesus. So the religious leaders came along and tried putting people back under the law, that's what gal was speaking about. Anyone who takes the time to read the entire book will see that. You cannot simply read parts of it and then guess what it is saying.

I'm writting from work on break from my cell phone, that's why some words are not capitalised. I cannot figure out how on my phone.

Rick b said...

Interested said here a a couple of examples of things that are confusing to the thinking reader.

Sadly IMO, many people are not "thinking readers", the vast majority simply look in books or ask people or find ways to get verse that seem tough and then jump all over them as wrong.

People either know this and ignore it or dont know it and they will now. If you read the OT, at first it was simply the human race, and people could speak to God themselves.

Example, Adam and Eve and Cain and Able, then God took a pagan who worshiped false Gods and spoke to him and said follow me and I will make you a great nation. From this one man came the nation of the Jews.

Now the Jews were given laws that they were required to obey, and they were told by God, If you obey these laws you will be blessed, but if not you will be cursed.

These laws did not apply to gentiles unless the gentiles converted over to the Jewish life style.

Part 2 next

Rick b said...

Part 2.

Now many people look at these laws given to the Jews and cry foul and complain they are mean and cruel, Like Eye for Eye, Tooth for Tooth for example.

Now I dont know why you guys make such a fuss over this stuff, It does not apply to you and never has.

Also If you come and say, well it might not apply to us gentiles, but it's still wrong and thats why I complain about it, then I really will say to whoever says that, Your lying.

I say your lying because you put up a stink over God telling the Jews here is a law you must obey, you cry it's wrong, yet I dont see you doing that today.

I dont see you crying that the Jews are being attacked and when they defend themselves you get mad.

Put another way, People claim the Bible is wrong because God gave HIS PEOPLE, Laws they must follow. Some people like atheists or even Christians claim these laws are mean and cruel, yet these same people arguing over laws that were given 1,000's of years ago are not blogging, making video's or taking up bill board ad's about Muslims throwing acid in the face's of women.

these same people are not upset over little girls and women having their sexual organs mutilated, or the fact that since Muslim men cannot seem to go a minute with out lusting, they require women to be put under heavy bondage of a total body cover up with a Burka. Once you guys take up blogging or making you tube video's or bill board ad's over these issue's, then I will truly believe you have care for the Jews that existed 1,000's of years ago and had to abide by Gods laws.

But until then, I believe from the lack of evidence or the majority of evidence from you guys not saying and doing certain things, or saying and doing certain things, that it is more a matter of you have problems with God. I maintain you guys hate God, You claim you cannot hate something you dont believe in.

Yet you argue with passion about something you dont believe, but when I give examples of the same types of things going on and you find ways to discount them, That in it's self speaks volumes to me.

Rick b said...

Hello Interested,
well I am going to answer your questions now. You said Judges 13:5 and Numbers 6:5 contradict 1 cor 11:14. Again if you read the bible (all of it) and you read it in context you will better understand things.

Numbers 6:5 says : All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth [himself] unto the LORD, he shall be holy, [and] shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.

Then in Judges 13 it says the same thing, that verse when you read on is talking about the birth of Samson. Anyone who is going to set them selves apart for God did not shave their heads, this was one way of knowing who set themselves apart. also simply put, God said, do not shave your head. So it boils down to God told the people not to shave their heads.

Now in Corinthians Paul was saying this as his opinion, not God said cut your hair, How do I know this was Paul's opinion and not of God? Because for one, if it was of God, Paul would have said so, and stated that this was a command of God. Two if you read the verse after the one you gave Paul goes on to say in verse 16 that this is not a custom and the churches do not do it either.

1Cr 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

1Cr 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.

1Cr 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Now their is one verse in the OT that says, Man looks at the appearance of other men, but God looks at the heart.

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Now I love this verse because I never dress up and many people as far as believers and pastors go, like to look down upon me and people like me for not dressing up. I really dont care, I refuse to dress up because some man wants me to. When I got married I wore a leather jacket, jeans and combat boots, and on the back of my leather jacket, I had an air brush design of a baby seal on a beach holding a sign saying, Save the baby humans stop abortion. People were pissed, I was told one guy wanted to come up and remove the jacket from me, but his wife told him to stay out of it. I said it would be the biggest mistake of his life to even try. It was my wedding and my wife did not care. I still have the wedding pictures 17 years later.

I still to this day do not dress up, not even dress clothes, It's all "street" clothes and it does piss some people off that I dont dress up. But God loves me the way I am and I dont need, seek or ask for mans approval. I have 3 tattoo's One is Romans 2:11, God does not show Favoritism. I love that verse, since God loves me the way I am and I dont care what man thinks. Another was my own design and many people get offended by it, but again I dont care. It is a face with the eyes and mouth stitched shut and below the face it says, CHOKE U OUT. I had that created and put on my arm since I did Judo and submission style fighting for over 6 years, And the choke hold is my favorite move and I go for that every time with out fail.

Interested said...

It seems that one can read into or out of the bible any thing. However, that is my point; it is difficult to understand. It should be very clear to the average person if it is inspired by god and supposed to be a guide for life. It isn't and there is no amount of justifying that can make it so.

Now all that said, I do agree that the detractors often pick and choose verses to make a point and I am not sure any of it matters anyway.

So I'm wondering Rick, have you read the book I suggested about evolution?

Rick b said...

Nope I have not. I dont have time to read anything right now even if I wanted to. I have 2 jobs and am full time in school. I have a lot of homework in the class I am now. I have 3 weeks left of this class, then one more 6 week class and then I start a three week externship, I will be working for 3 months for free as part of school. Here is a link, you might need to cut and paste it, but it is to the place I will be working for.

Rick b said...

Interested said It seems that one can read into or out of the bible any thing. However, that is my point; it is difficult to understand. It should be very clear to the average person if it is inspired by god and supposed to be a guide for life. It isn't and there is no amount of justifying that can make it so.

I dont agree with you, How do you figure I am reading into anything? Also I was kicked out of high school, Then booted from a second one and dropped out of Job corp. Then it took me 6 times to get a GED.

If I can read the Bible and find it easy to understand what God is saying, then I think it is more a matter of people choose to not want to believe.

Take Romans 2:11 for example, It says, God does not show favoritism. What do you think God was saying? Seems pretty simple to me, God is saying He does not show Favoritism.

Take John 3:16, For God so loved the whole World That He gave His one and Only Son. That who ever believes on Him should not perish, but have ever lasting Life.

Again, what is God saying? Seems to me, God is saying He loves the entire world, Boy that was tough. What Did God do? He sent His son to Die, Yep Thats really tough to figure out. I could go on.

Why is it people claim the Bible is hard to understand and cannot seem to figure it out, Yet their our 1,000,s of books that cover every thing from History to sci-fi To documentary's and people seem to have no problems with those, only with the Bible. I really believe people will only believe what they want despite the evidence.

This will some day come back to remind you, But if we/I/You live long enough to see the rapture, and you wake up one day and hear millions across the world are gone, then you know I was right, so dont believe people when they say it was alien's or mother earth or what ever.

Interested said...

I really believe people will only believe what they want despite the evidence.

I agree.

Congratulations on the the swanky job! I may see you there...

Rick b said...

One thing I find really funny about the restaurant business is going behind the scenes.

Some places look really nice, but then when you go in you find they are dirty or you see things you dont want to. I spent two days here already checking it out and I loved it.

They are some seriously hard workers who are very passionate about what they do. But they all look like a bunch of tattooed bikers. I fit right in, They loved me, and I love it their.

I will be working for free for 3 months, Then I will be looking for a job working some places like that. I dont know if you saw my Iron Chef Pastry post a while back, but I took on the pastry chef from the Restaurant I will be at. It was nice to meet the Pastry Chef again, and this time I got to work with her in the pastry department. a link for the competition is here.

If you ever show up for diner, let me know. I wont be starting till April 4th just so you know.