Monday, September 29, 2008

An Invitation to Rick, et. al.

I'll not argue the merits of an ark of wood built of wood because I think there is a lot more that one should consider when validating that story.
First the story is older than that of the bible retelling:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0329gilgamesh.asp
And then we must look at the logic of the story. Is it possible that a 300 foot ship i.e. ark, could even house the number of animals reported much less the food needed to sustain them all for more than a month?

And finally, if we continue this discussion, and I am willing, we must agree on what is evidence. It must be empirical evidence or it is not evidence.

The dictionary definition of empirical evidence is evidence relating to or based on experience or observation.

Before you come at me with the fact that I did not observe evolution I will conceed. I did not so I will give you that point.

What I will discuss is the existence of a supernatural being. I am not interested in "feelings" or "revelations" I want hard evidence.

Since you DO believe YOU must prove it. I DO NOT believe so there is nothing I can prove.

So are you up for this?

30 comments:

BEAST FCD said...

The Gilgamesh story was one of 6 flood stories in the Middle East....no surprise, since the Nile River was notorious for its flooding episodes. The Noah's Ark tale was simply an ancient exaggeration of these old housewives' tale.

I actually posted this one on Noah a long time back (Tim the stupid Christian tried to debate with me, got trashed cos he misquoted the bible. Big boo boo!), and I posted the link on your previous post, so out of respect I will perhaps condense my arguments as follows:

1. The structure of the ship: At 300 feet, the integrity of the ship is questionable, since we know wood has a certain porosity and is especially weak at the joints.

2. The rain fell consistently for 40 days and nights right up to the highest mountains, according to the bible. Taking the height of mount everest as the highest mountain, the rain of the rainfall will pound the ark with the ferocity of a bloody pneumatic drill. Unless the ship is made of titanium, it will be destroyed at almost the moment the raindrops fell onto the ark.

3. Where did all the water needed to flood the Earth came from? Assuming all the polar ice melts, and every damn drop of water fell onto the planet, you still can't flood every continent on the planet.

4. The bible mentioned that noah sent out a dove to seek out land; the water took 150 days to recede. We can assume that all trees would have been submerged for 100 days or more. Assuming the water pressure didn't kill them, the lack of sunlight for photosynthesis will.

5. There are, according to the most conservative estimates, at least 10 million species (Most like many times more) of flora and fauna. Each animal species will have specific dietary needs. Can 8 folks on board cater to them? Don't tell me that they went into hibernation cos the bible states specifically that God did tell noah to bring in food. Tim the christian moron was floored when he used to deluded argument.

6. Animals need space to eat, sleep, shit, and move around. Given the size of the ark and the magnitude of the task, Noah's herculean logistics nightmare is, well, nightmarish.

7. Travelling to noah's ark will be difficult for most animals: Assuming Noah is located in the middle East, a polar bear will have to wad through the Artic, trudge through a vast continent called Asia, before he reaches his destination. If the walking and swimming doesn't kill it, the heat probably will. Worst for the fat pudgy penguin. And don't forget the sloths in the south americas. They move at a pace of 1m a day. Same goes for the galapagos tortoise.

Rick, address these issues.

Beast

Shelli said...

Scientific Reasons
(for the global flood)

The earth's surface and sedimentary crust also bear strong witness to the historicity of a worldwide Flood, and the early geologists (Steno, Woodward, etc.) taught this. Most modern geologists have argued, on the other hand, that the earth's crust was formed slowly over billions of years. Yes, but consider the following significant facts.

1. All the mountains of the world have been under water at some time or times in the past, as indicated by sedimentary rocks and marine fossils near their summits. Even most volcanic mountains with their pillow lavas seem largely to have been formed when under water.
2. Most of the earth's crust consists of sedimentary rocks (sandstones, shales, limestones, etc.). These were originally formed in almost all cases under water, usually by deposition after transportation by water from various sources.
3. The assigned "ages" of the sedimentary beds (which comprise the bulk of the "geologic column") have been deduced from their assemblages of fossils. Fossils, however, normally require very rapid burial and compaction to be preserved at all. Thus every sedimentary formation appears to have been formed rapidly—even catastrophically—and more and more present-day geologists are returning to this point of view.
4. Since there is known to be a global continuity of sedimentary formations in the geologic column (that is, there is no worldwide "unconformity," or time gap, between successive "ages"), and since each unit was formed rapidly, the entire geologic column seems to be the product of continuous rapid deposition of sediments, comprising in effect the geological record of a time when "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."
5. It is also significant that the types of rocks, the vast extent of specific sedimentary rock formations, the minerals and metals, coal and oil found in rocks, the various types of structures (i.e., faults, folds, thrusts, etc.), sedimentary rocks grossly deformed while still soft from recent deposition, and numerous other features seem to occur indiscriminately throughout the various "ages" supposedly represented in the column. To all outward appearances, therefore, they were all formed in essentially the same brief time period.
6. The fossil sequences in the sedimentary rocks do not constitute a legitimate exception to this rule, for there is a flagrant circular reasoning process involved in using them to identify their supposed geologic age. That is, the fossils have been dated by the rocks where they are found, which in turn had been dated by their imbedded fossils with the sequences based on their relative assumed stages of evolution, which had ultimately been based on the ancient philosophy of the "great chain of being." Instead of representing the evolution of life over many ages, the fossils really speak of the destruction of life (remember that fossils are dead things, catastrophically buried for preservation) in one age, with their actual local "sequences" having been determined by the ecological communities in which they were living at the time of burial.
7. The fact that there are traditions of the great Flood found in hundreds of tribes in all parts of the world (all similar in one way or another to that in the Genesis record) is firm evidence that those tribes all originated from the one family preserved through the cataclysm.

This brief article is a mere introduction to the large array of scientific and Biblical evidences that could be cited for the great Flood of the Bible, global in extent and cataclysmic in character and results. The book, The Genesis Flood (co-authored by Dr. John Whitcomb and myself back in 1961), supplemented by many subsequent books and especially by many writers and articles in the Creation Research Society Quarterly scattered over its 35 years of publication, as well as various other creationist journals, provides an abundance of further evidence and documentation of the global extent and cataclysmic nature of the Flood.

One can understand why atheistic and pantheistic evolutionists have to interpret Earth history in terms of great ages and evolution, rather than Creation and the Flood. They really have no other choice, once they have decided to reject the God of Creation and His record in the Bible. However, it is very difficult to understand why men and women who do believe in God and His word do this. The Bible is explicitly clear on the global Deluge, and sound scientific evidence supports it.

But this position does mean that the geological ages could never have happened, and too many establishment-oriented Christians are not yet willing to take such a stand. And that's rather sad in these last critical days.

* Dr. Morris is Founder and President Emeritus of ICR.

This article was originally published August, 1998. "Why Christians Should Believe in a Global Flood", Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/842/ (accessed September 29, 2008).

rick b said...

Beast said,
1. The structure of the ship: At 300 feet, the integrity of the ship is questionable, since we know wood has a certain porosity and is especially weak at the joints.


First off, if God is real, and he created the earth and people, he surly could build an ark.

now, you can find photos on line of people who built life size models of the ark. Here is one over in the netherlands.

http://www.jonholato.com/2007/04/30/noahs-ark-rebuilt-4000-years-later/

then their is another one built here in the united states. cannot recall the exact state, but I believe it is in Kentucky.

Now I am no ship builder, but as for the size, we have giant red wood trees and they are so big, they put holes in them and drive through them. so since we cannot see the trees Noah used, it is possible he used really big trees.


but even if he did not, it still is possible after seeing the arks built according to the specs found in the bible.

Beast said 2. The rain fell consistently for 40 days and nights right up to the highest mountains, according to the bible. Taking the height of mount everest as the highest mountain, the rain of the rainfall will pound the ark with the ferocity of a bloody pneumatic drill. Unless the ship is made of titanium, it will be destroyed at almost the moment the raindrops fell onto the ark.

Maybe I am not getting it here, but how do you figure the rain fell so hard it would destroy the ark. the bible tells us things were serve, but the bible does not tell us the rain fell so hard it would/could destroy the ark. plus we have evidence of news reporters standing out in level 4 hurricanes and that means the wind is blowing over 100 miles per hour and the wind and rain does not kill the news reporter.


Beast said, 3. Where did all the water needed to flood the Earth came from? Assuming all the polar ice melts, and every damn drop of water fell onto the planet, you still can't flood every continent on the planet.

either you never read the bible, or you did but ignored what it said, plus I am kinda surprised at you, for a guy that seems to pride himself on his knowledge you seem to forget about underground springs.

the bible is clear, the ground busted open and the under ground springs came up and flooded the earth along with the rain. plus their were not mountains and oceans back then. the bible indicates that during and after the grounds broke up the mountains arose.

and their were not polar caps or snow until after the ark landed, the Bible tells us the ENTIRE earth was in tropic conditions, and even modern scientists have found Woolly mammoths with with tropical vegetation and that they cannot explain.

Scientists have even stated, it looks as if all the land masses broke like a puzzle, and if they were togther we would have on big land section. remove the oceans, all the water can fit in the under ground springs, we would have lots of land to walk on.

Beast said 4. The bible mentioned that noah sent out a dove to seek out land; the water took 150 days to recede. We can assume that all trees would have been submerged for 100 days or more. Assuming the water pressure didn't kill them, the lack of sunlight for photosynthesis will.

I agree, so whats your point? but even today we have plant life that lives in and under water.

Beast said 5. There are, according to the most conservative estimates, at least 10 million species (Most like many times more) of flora and fauna. Each animal species will have specific dietary needs. Can 8 folks on board cater to them? Don't tell me that they went into hibernation cos the bible states specifically that God did tell noah to bring in food. Tim the christian moron was floored when he used to deluded argument.

If you read your bible, the creatures did not have specific dietary needs, they all as well as humans at herbs and plants. we all were vegans, this changed after the flood.

Beast said 6. Animals need space to eat, sleep, shit, and move around. Given the size of the ark and the magnitude of the task, Noah's herculean logistics nightmare is, well, nightmarish.

No one said it would be easy, I am sure it was hard, but just because something is hard does not make it false.

Beast said
7. Travelling to noah's ark will be difficult for most animals: Assuming Noah is located in the middle East, a polar bear will have to wad through the Artic, trudge through a vast continent called Asia, before he reaches his destination. If the walking and swimming doesn't kill it, the heat probably will. Worst for the fat pudgy penguin. And don't forget the sloths in the south americas. They move at a pace of 1m a day. Same goes for the galapagos tortoise.


Lets say you were correct here, it took Noah 120 years to build the ark according to the Bible, that is more than enough time for the animals to travel, but since the bible is very clear, it was tropical, and no snow and artic places, the polar bear would not have to worry. maybe the sloth lived next door to Noah.

Then you mentioned south america, their was no such thing at the time of noah, it was just on big earth, the flood messed up everything, and as I said already, many believe you could attach the land masses like a puzzle and have a bigger chunk of earth. Rick b

BEAST FCD said...

I am surprised someone talks about sedimentation.

Fossils, it seems, are very accurate in terms of turning up in different sedimentary layers.

Let's give an example: The Cambrian explosion: This was a time (520 million yrs ago) when life suddenly exploded; multi cellular organisms start appearing.

Now, assuming evolution is wrong, you should be able to find the bones of, say, rabbits, in the Cambrian layer. If you could find that, the whole evolutionary theory will be turned upside down. But no one has ever found anything more than multi-cellular organisms in these rocks.

If the global flood was indeed true, all the fossils would have been deposited in one layer, not many layers in such a precise fashion.

Beast

BEAST FCD said...

I am not disputing that there are flood stories all around the globe; people in the yangtze river in china also have historical references to floods. What does that prove? It proves people like to live near rivers because of easy access to water for their agriculture, and rivers flood.

Beast

BEAST FCD said...

Rick's arguments against my questions are almost exactly the same as Tim the Christian moron's arguments, but I will spend some time to refute it:

1. Building a life size model of the ark today is not the same as building it a few thousand years ago: Today, we have computer technology, metallurgy and all sorts of mind-boggling gadgets to play around with: Do you think Noah may have so much as a pneumatic drill to play around with????

2.The force of the rain, if we are to take the parameters of the bible to the letter, will be far worst than the worst hurricanes.

3. You mention underground water. This is known by Creationists as the Hydroplate Theory, which is not even scientific to begin with: If water did spew in such gargantuan quantities from the ground, the heat from the Earth's superheated core would have boiled the water (note underground water vents, which exists even on ocean floors), meaning to say that all life on earth, including the ark, would have been destroyed by superheated steam.

4.Trees can survive underwater, up to a certain depth: Either the water pressure will kill it, or the let of sunlight will. Simple science really.

5. Another ridiculous idea from christians who assumed all life were herbivores: Some animals, like lions, definitely did not evolve to chew strawberries; their sharp canine teeth would have made it virtually impossible to chew plant matter. Besides, their gastronomical innards cannot handle veggies efficiently. This really is a stupid assumption with no basis or evidence.

6. "Lets say you were correct here, it took Noah 120 years to build the ark according to the Bible, that is more than enough time for the animals to travel, but since the bible is very clear, it was tropical, and no snow and artic places, the polar bear would not have to worry. maybe the sloth lived next door to Noah."

Yes, Rick, according to you that is. This is the old world mentality: Before Christopher Columbus, the americas were never there: God placed it there magically for Christopher Columbus to discover paradise!

The crux of the problem was that bible writers, trapped in their fundie world of middle east politics, couldn't have envisioned the world of extreme cold and new frontiers. And christians like Rick bought it, hook, line and sinker.

Next, Rick argued:"
Then you mentioned south america, their was no such thing at the time of noah, it was just on big earth, the flood messed up everything, and as I said already, many believe you could attach the land masses like a puzzle and have a bigger chunk of earth."

I assume Rick is talking about Plate Tectonics, the Christian way. Geologists have mentioned that millions of years ago, the 7 continents were meshed into one giant continent known as Pangea. Fair enough, but Christians think this state of geography was there a couple of thousand years ago.

The thing of Plate Tectonics is that, as earthquakes shake up the land masses, continents shift at a rate of perhaps a few centimeters a year. Assuming the Christians were right, there must have been one hell of a series of earthquakes that shook the earth, maybe on the scale of 1000 on the Richter scale! Surely that's not possible!

Beast FCD

rick b said...

well beast I guess when you die and find out God is real, you can tell him how smart you thought you were to think your self straight into hell.

you will choose to believe what ever you want, no matter how much evidence your given. Rick b

BEAST FCD said...

Rick

Kindly stick to the decorum of the post: No proselytizing, stick to hard core evidence.

The sort of "evidence" you have provided runs smack against common sense and science. If you have nothing else to add besides ad hominems and evidence I take it that I have won this round.

Beast FCD

Interested said...

Yes please. Rick, from the outset I asked that this be only evidence and not preachy feelings and threats against those of us who disagree.

Rick I think you believe all that you say but sometimes I wonder if you are spending your time wisely. I asked you once why you would troll these blogs if you are a true believer. Your answer was that you believe that it is your 'calling' to give us the message about god. If that is your calling then please, we have the message. We have been told 9 ways to Sunday that we will all burn in hell.

For the purpose of this blog I want intelligent discussion about facts and evidence. You are welcome to provide such, even if it comes from the bible, but no preachy stuff. You cannot save me, I am beyond your help and hope.

BEAST FCD said...

"If you read your bible, the creatures did not have specific dietary needs, they all as well as humans at herbs and plants. we all were vegans, this changed after the flood."

Rick, not every herbivore eats the same plants: Panda bears will not chew on just any old leaf; only bamboo shoots become panda food. And the koala bears survive solely on eucalyptus leaves. Don't believe me, throw a couple of banana leaves in its direction.

Rick, I am not trying to be rude, but perhaps it would do you a world of good if you would perhaps read more mainstream material, particularly secular ones, rather than the religious drivel you download or view right off the net.The way I see it, you give me the impression that you are not very educated, and you remind me of Governor Sarah Palin: That blank, stupid stare that tells the whole world that she is a brainless babbling bitch who is there just to make Mc Cain look good.

Beast

rick b said...

you guys can say I do not give evidence or I am stupid, creation speaks for it's self and after you die you will think, man rick was right and I was the stupid one.

Like I said, no matter how much evidence I give, even sources other than scripture, you reject it, so I guess your day is coming and you will now how smart I really was. rick b

Jessica said...

Hey there,

Just reviewing the conversation here and thought I'd add my two cents.

Beast said "I am not disputing that there are flood stories all around the globe; people in the yangtze river in china also have historical references to floods. What does that prove?"

I would like to share an excerpt from Creationwiki in response to Beast's question:

"There are two explanations for the widespread flood story:

* The global flood was a popular and fictional myth created by early man, passed from culture to culture and gradually exaggerated.
* The global flood was a historical event, of which the events were recorded and retained to varying degrees of accuracy in different cultures over the years.

Those who hold to the second approach challenge those who hold to the former in the following ways:

* If this was a fictional myth, why did all the cultures take it as historical fact?
* If this was a fictional myth, why was it found among Native American people who (according to the evolutionary view) had no contact with people of the Middle East for tens of thousands of years?
* If this was a fictional myth, why is there such a spectacular degree of detail, particularly in the Genesis account, which provides the exact day, month, and year for the events of the flood?
* Why is the geologic record so much more consistent with catastrophism than with uniformitarianism?[6]
* Why does the physical evidence such as the massive fossil graveyards, huge sedimentary deposits, vast coal and oil fields and chalk deposits indicate a massive flood so strongly?

Many of those who most vigorously object to the second approach (historic event) do so for philosophical reasons. Because the most complete account of the Flood is found in Genesis, any admission of a major flood in human times would present a threat to Naturalism philosophy. They object to the idea that a God of judgement would reveal the future to a human and then destroy almost all land-living animals. Even evolutionists who agree with catasrophism often seek other explanations. This philosophical objection results in a great number of apparently scientific arguments against a global flood. However, most of these arguments are unfounded and do not hold up to scientific scrutiny."

(creationwiki.org/Global_flood)

Have a great day everyone!

BEAST FCD said...

Jessica: I have already more or less refuted the arguments you presented.

Rick:

Again you resort to this kind of meaningless rhetoric. So I take it that I won this round.

Beast

Interested said...

Rick I think the proper term is investigate or scrutinize your evidence, not reject. All evidence must stand to investigation and scrutiny or it is not evidence.

Jessica I believe your assertions have been answered quite well by Beast.

rick b said...

Beast, Just because you Reject the Truth does not man you won. Add to that, Like I said to interested, Just because you think your right dos not make it true.

Their is so much evidence to prove the Bible true it's not funny. But no matter how much any one shows you, you will find ways to reject it.

Then even though you do not believe the Bible, it tells us that after Jesus returns and live on Earth and rule for a 1,000 years, people will see Jesus living and ruling but yet even then so many will still reject him that the number of people trying to fight against God will out number the sands of the sea.

Then you guys can mock me, or say I am stupid, thats fine, You as well as me will die some day and no one knows when we will die. It could be today for you guys or it could be 100 more years, People kill or it could be an attack of some sort, or natural disaster or anything, our live will pass so fast it is not funny, then deny all you want, but you will see God that you deny so much, and the Bible speaks more about Hell than Heaven and the terror that awaits.

Just alone the Bible has 1,800 Prophecies and over 1,300 have come to pass. If that is not enough evidence to prove the Bible, then I dont know what to tell you.

If you want to fight against God and then claim your really not, because you say you cannot fight something does not exist, then thats your choice. Rick b

Interested said...

My husband and I were married long enough that we had each heard the other's stories. When I would begin to tell something that he had already heard, probably a half dozen times, he had a way to shut me up. He would give me this really sweet and innocent look and say "Can of worms, can of worms."

Rick, "Can of worms, can of worms."

rick b said...

Speaking of Prophecies, We see more starting to come to pass today with all that is going on in america and the Middle east.

I told Beast, Russia will march against Israel, He rejects that, the fact Russia marched Georgia is the start of it, Russia will be going through Georgia to get to Russia.

And with the American people looking to face a Economic crash, Were heading to a cashless society
and a world of hurt. The talking heads can tell us things will get better, but they really wont. And I for one am looking forward to it happening, because then I can say to people like you guys, See it happend just as I said and you denied it, Now you know I was right, but then you will still find a way to deny it, or bury your head in the sand. Rick b

BEAST FCD said...

"I told Beast, Russia will march against Israel, He rejects that, the fact Russia marched Georgia is the start of it, Russia will be going through Georgia to get to Russia."

Lolz, I assume what Rick says Russia will get to Georgia first, then Israel (typo).

Ok, I am no military strategist, but I have read Sun Tzu's Art of War (Being Chinese, and an ex navy man, its a must read), and before I decide to refute you perhaps you need to understand politics.

First of all, Russia have always had military dealings with the Arabs, selling weapons and stuff, during the Cold War. The US, in turn, also supplied free ammo and weapons to the Israelis, as well as the Talibans to fight against the Russians. In short, the Russians were using surrogate nations to fight indirectly against the US, since direct confrontation with two superpowers will no doubt lead to nuclear confrontation....not a good prospect for most of us, unless you are one of those morons looking forward to the Rapture.

Since the time of the Tsars, the Russians have had to content with keeping its conquered lands within its reins; from the Balkans all the way to the pacific ocean, that is a hell of a lot of territory, but that does not include Israel.

Besides the geographical distance between Russia and Israel, both countries do not have direct military conflict because they do not have a direct conflict of interest. To claim that the Ruskies will match troops to Jerusalem is a bit of a wishful thinking.

Beast

BEAST FCD said...

"And with the American people looking to face a Economic crash, Were heading to a cashless society
and a world of hurt. "

Sometimes you just have to hand it over to the doomsayers: A little volcanic eruption here, a little tsunami there, and you start listening to screaming banshees talking about Jebus coming back on a space saucer.

People seem to forget that this is not the first time Wall Street bit the dust....There was the 1930s Depression too. But of course, there were other more cataclysmic events, like WW1 and WW2, so I guess shit does happen.

Well folks like me don't take such talk seriously. If all these stories were true, Jebus would have been visiting us quite regularly over two millennia....

Beast FCD

rick b said...

I knew you would reject it, but thats ok, because it will be all the better when it does happen. rick b

rick b said...

I found this article on the web a minute ago, here is the link that will show pictures and have added links to more info.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26972493/?GT1=43001

I know that you might want to look as soon as possible since these links go dead after a period of time.

A bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., is engraved with what may be the world's first known reference to Christ. The engraving reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."
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A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that is engraved with what they believe could be the world's first known reference to Christ.

If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world.

The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by the excavation team to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."
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"It could very well be a reference to Jesus Christ, in that he was once the primary exponent of white magic," Goddio, co-founder of the Oxford Center of Maritime Archaeology, said.

He and his colleagues found the object during an excavation of the underwater ruins of Alexandria's ancient great harbor. The Egyptian site also includes the now submerged island of Antirhodos, where Cleopatra's palace may have been located.

Both Goddio and Egyptologist David Fabre, a member of the European Institute of Submarine Archaeology, think a "magus" could have practiced fortune telling rituals using the bowl. The Book of Matthew refers to "wisemen," or Magi, believed to have been prevalent in the ancient world.

According to Fabre, the bowl is also very similar to one depicted in two early Egyptian earthenware statuettes that are thought to show a soothsaying ritual.

"It has been known in Mesopotamia probably since the 3rd millennium B.C.," Fabre said. "The soothsayer interprets the forms taken by the oil poured into a cup of water in an interpretation guided by manuals."

He added that the individual, or "medium," then goes into a hallucinatory trance when studying the oil in the cup.

"They therefore see the divinities, or supernatural beings appear that they call to answer their questions with regard to the future," he said.

The magus might then have used the engraving on the bowl to legitimize his supernatural powers by invoking the name of Christ, the scientists theorize.


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Goddio said, "It is very probable that in Alexandria they were aware of the existence of Jesus" and of his associated legendary miracles, such as transforming water into wine, multiplying loaves of bread, conducting miraculous health cures, and the story of the resurrection itself.

While not discounting the Jesus Christ interpretation, other researchers have offered different possible interpretations for the engraving, which was made on the thin-walled ceramic bowl after it was fired, since slip was removed during the process.

Bert Smith, a professor of classical archaeology and art at Oxford University, suggests the engraving might be a dedication, or present, made by a certain "Chrestos" belonging to a possible religious association called Ogoistais.

Klaus Hallof, director of the Institute of Greek inscriptions at the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy, added that if Smith's interpretation proves valid, the word "Ogoistais" could then be connected to known religious groups that worshipped early Greek and Egyptian gods and goddesses, such as Hermes, Athena and Isis.

Hallof additionally pointed out that historians working at around, or just after, the time of the bowl, such as Strabon and Pausanias, refer to the god "Osogo" or "Ogoa," so a variation of this might be what's on the bowl. It is even possible that the bowl refers to both Jesus Christ and Osogo.

Fabre concluded, "It should be remembered that in Alexandria, paganism, Judaism and Christianity never evolved in isolation. All of these forms of religion (evolved) magical practices that seduced both the humble members of the population and the most well-off classes."

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"It was in Alexandria where new religious constructions were made to propose solutions to the problem of man, of God's world," he added. "Cults of Isis, mysteries of Mithra, and early Christianity bear witness to this."

The bowl is currently on public display in the exhibit "Egypt's Sunken Treasures" at the Matadero Cultural Center in Madrid, Spain, until November 15.
© 2008 Discovery Channel

BEAST FCD said...

Erm, Rick, read carefully, that is Christ the Magician, not Christ the Messiah.

Just quoting straight from MSBN.

Beast FCD

rick b said...

Beast, the article does say, If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world.

I,m guessing they are still looking into it. rick b

BEAST FCD said...

Well my guess is this Jebus will only add to the long line of Jebuses that were either recorded or found to be chalartans in the history of the middle east.

Just one more messiah wannabe with his ass nailed.

Beast

tlangston82 said...

Rick,

You are the kind of "Christian" that gives Christianity a bad name. Your arguments are NOT logical, and they surely don't provide any factual evidence to back anything you say up.

Try, just once, to read the Bible critically. Look at all the stories and ask your self HONESTLY if you REALLY believe it all. You'll probably come to the conclusion that the majority of it seems awfully fair-tale'ish.

I'm sure you FEEL like you believe it.. But how can you say you KNOW??? You don't KNOW, your heart (emotions) aren't hard truth.

And one more thing. It seems all your trying to do when you get mad at people in here is SCARE them into believing something you want them too by spooking them with HELL and DAMNATION and MISERY.

You would think that since God sent his son to DIE for ALL of the sins that mankind has and will ever commit, that we wouldn't have to worry about that going to Hell business... Didn't Jesus take care of that for you?

The bible is a story. At best it is a child's bedtime story. Grow up and learn how to live and stop worshiping a dream of some glorious heaven.

You are here on earth. Maybe you should learn about being human rather than dreaming about being a man with big wings flying around in the clouds.

WAKE UP from the fairy tale.

rick b said...

tlangston82 Say what you want, but once you Die, you will then know you were wrong. Rick b

Interested said...

Rick please get a new line. Telling us we will know when we die is not only ridiculous but also impossible to know.

rick b said...

tlangston82, and interested, I find it funny how you guys and others can say, I/we know God does not exist, but I cannot say God Does exist. You can tell me, I/we know their is no evidence for God, but I cannot say, yes their is.

Again. we all agree we will Die, but it will suck for you if your WRONG. Yet you seem pretty sure your correct, but get mad at me for saying I am correct. Rick b

Interested said...

No anger here...but it is rather boring to hear the same song over and over. Rick you do not KNOW there is a god you BELIEVE there is a god. I just don't happen to believe there is. My non belief is based on a lack of substantive evidence.
For a definition of substantive evidence see:
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Substantive%20)

BEAST FCD said...

Oh lordie, hell me! Jebus is coming! (Snorts).......Gee damn the cocaine is smashing....... (Laughs)

Oh well Rick. Christians of all imaginable sects all love the fire and brim stone analogy when all else fails, which in your case, fits perfectly in the aforesaid category.

If you really have nothing to say, may I suggest you entertain us on youtube for a change. Shake your big tummy a little hear, your naked bum there, or hum some feisty hot rednecks in the countryside (not your wife though, sorry to say she looks like a sow to me!), do whatever you want, but spare us your "ya going to hell" diatribe. Frankly, it isn't working, and don't be surprised if one day your comments get deleted. Cos they are repetitive and offer no real arguments AT ALL. PERIOD.

Beast FCD