Tuesday, October 5, 2010

So, who wants to go to heaven?

I was reading face book posts today and found this on a friends blog. It makes me think about many things I have pushed aside for a while. He is talking about heaven and the Christian concept of such. His comments are so poignant I find myself agonizing for my believing children.


I have been told that if I perform the correct Jesus Worship Ritual, that when I go to heaven, I will not be troubled by those who are not there. Some people have told me I would forget that they existed. Others have said that I will remember but will not care because heaven will be so wonderful. If either of these is true, then I fully believe that I would no longer be myself. I am a person who cares about the suffering of others, and who is hurt when my friends are hurt. Some of the people who are already in hell were very dear friends. They were good people who tried very hard to make the lives of their friends better. I would not be who I am without their memory. So if the god Jesus intends to erase my memory, I think that is the same as a death sentence.

Even more troubling is the idea that the god Jesus will make me so uncaring because of my own pleasure that I will not bother to grieve for my lost friends and family. By all measures of goodness that I know, that would make me an evil person. I do not wish to become evil, so I do not wish to go to heaven.


My poor kids; either they will not remember me or they will remember me and not give a damn that I am burning in hell.

I'm glad I don't believe it and nothing anyone can say to me can make me feel bad about not putting that burden on my children.

If you want to read more of his reasons check out his blog.

17 comments:

Rick b said...

It's like this, If you go to hell, then your not going to be thinking about who else is their, your going to be angry at yourself for rejecting God and going to hell.

Also I find it sad that people always try and make Jesus out to be the bad guy, by doing this you remove all accountability from yourself, and you therefore reject everything He did for you.

He loves us/you so much that He died for you and for all of eternity bare scares that were a result of trying to save you, yet instead of saying,

I think it is great that He died for me and wants to save me, you call Him hateful and evil simply because of your great ignorance. Then you pick and choose verses to try and support this view, and when given verse that show His great love you either make excuses for them or ignore them.

hambydammit said...

It's like this, If you go to hell, then your not going to be thinking about who else is their, your going to be angry at yourself for rejecting God and going to hell.

Hmm... Last time I had to endure physical pain because of someone else's injustice to me, I was angry at them, not myself.

Also I find it sad that people always try and make Jesus out to be the bad guy, by doing this you remove all accountability from yourself, and you therefore reject everything He did for you.

What he did? You mean sacrificing himself to himself and then making me believe the preposterous story before he'll forgive me for being the way he made me? Doesn't seem like much of a gift to me. Sounds like the work of a petulant child who hasn't learned empathy yet.

He loves us/you so much that He died for you and for all of eternity bare scares that were a result of trying to save you, yet instead of saying,

If by "die" you mean, "spent a few hours in physical pain and then appeared to die, but didn't really die because he's immortal," then I accept the word die. But I'm not impressed. If he is indeed immortal, his lifespan is more than a trillion years. But just for argument, let's say it was actually a trillion years. And let's say that he suffered physical pain for 24 hours. One day is roughly .003% of ten years. So... it is roughly .000000000003% of a trillion years. But since God lives forever, we can just add as many zeros to it as we want.

That's how much of his life he bothered to "sacrifice" by feeling a bit of pain. Hell, I've sacrificed more than that for most of my friends in some way or another. Hell, if you told me I had to endure unspeakable agony for 24 hours for ten million dollars, I'd do it in a heartbeat. So no... I'm not impressed by his "sacrifice."

Rick b said...

Hambydammit,
You said Hmm... Last time I had to endure physical pain because of someone else's injustice to me, I was angry at them, not myself.

How is it the injustice of God? What exactly did He do that you feel is injustice?

As to the rest of your story about How God did not really die, well then you believe what you want, But God became man so he could suffer and die. He lived for 33 years and His last days he was tortured and died. That was not as you say, merely seconds or minutes.

hambydammit said...

How is it the injustice of God? What exactly did He do that you feel is injustice?

Well, the simplest answer is that by making reward and punishment contingent on believing an astonishingly implausible story, he has made morality irrelevant. Anne Frank, a decent and moral person by most everyone's standards, is burning horribly in hell right now because she did not believe that your god sacrificed himself to himself. Hitler, who professed staunchly Catholic beliefs in Mein Kampf and speeches, and who courted the favor of the Catholic Church, and who professed to be a Christian, is presumably in heaven because he believed the right story. That is appallingly immoral. (Yeah... you haven't read Mein Kampf, have you? You didn't know he was a Christian...)

As to the rest of your story about How God did not really die, well then you believe what you want, But God became man so he could suffer and die. He lived for 33 years and His last days he was tortured and died. That was not as you say, merely seconds or minutes.

Ok... so he was human for 0.0000000000005% of his trillion year existence. Is that supposed to impress me?

Rick b said...

You really are clueless. Just because someone claims to be a christian does not make it so. Do I believe Hitler is in Heaven? No I do not. If you read the Bible, Jesus said, Not Every one who says, Lord, Lord will enter into Heaven.

Then people say, But we cast out Demons in your name, We did miracles in your name, we did this or that in your name, Jesus then says to them, depart from me your works of evil.

Just because you call your self a police officer does not make it so, any more than saying your a Believer.

Then you said, Anne Frank, a decent and moral person by most everyone's standards,

Here is the problem, Were not comparing ourselves to other humans and then saying, Well I'm not as bad as Hitler so then that makes me pretty good. Or I guess I'm not as good as mother Teresa so I guess I must be pretty bad. We are to compare ourselves to God.

God said no one is Good. But since we cannot enter heaven by our good works, we enter by His shed blood.

I dont care if you believe it or not. I just find it funny the anger that comes from you, you are pretty hateful towards a person you dont believe exists and you sure spend a lot of time thinking and talking about a person that does not exist.

I dont see people doing that with Santa Clause or the Easter bunny.
Then you can try and break things down about time, But God came in the form of Man, Was born of women and lived among us for 33 years then was killed and tortured in a most brutal way.

Rick B said...

hambydammit,
Here something for you to think about and reply to.

If God is not real and we somehow simply evolved, then who decided who is right and wrong. What I mean is, Clearly we have laws in all country's, it's just punishment is different. Some places they will cut you hand off for stealing.

Some guys like to rape women or molest kids. Who decide that all this stuff is wrong if God is not real?

If majority rules then still we tend to have lots of people who think rape is wrong. What if it come down to two people, A man raping a women and the rapist. Clearly it is one to one so no majority, yet the women does not want to be raped and the guy wants to do it. Why is one right and the other wrong?

Now, on the issue of God. The Bible says God created us, but it was US WHO DISOBEYED, It was us who choose to rebel, Why is it ok for humans to punish evil or people who do wrong, yet when God says He will punish those who rebel and fight against Him then the game changes and it is different?

hambydammit said...

You really are clueless.

This is ironic in light of what you're going to say in a minute...

If God is not real and we somehow simply evolved, then who decided who is right and wrong. What I mean is, Clearly we have laws in all country's, it's just punishment is different. Some places they will cut you hand off for stealing.

Some guys like to rape women or molest kids. Who decide that all this stuff is wrong if God is not real?


The funny thing is, Rick, there's an entire branch of science devoted to studying the evolution of morality. And you know what's even funnier? By using evolutionary theory, they predicted how they thought it happened, and then sure enough, the evidence backed them up.

But that isn't exactly what you were asking. Who decides? We do, Rick. We decide, just like you decide on a day to day basis. Your brain and mine work exactly the same way. As you go through your day, you aren't nice to people because you're afraid your god will whip your ass if you don't. You're nice because you know instinctively that it's the right thing to do.

When you do something wrong, you know instinctively that it's wrong, but you do it anyway. Same with me. The difference between you and me is that you place the moral impetus on your god Jesus, and I take responsibility for all of my actions, whether they are good or bad. I live with the real world consequences when I do wrong.

hambydammit said...

Sometimes we disagree, and sometimes we screw up, but that's unfortunately part of the human condition. We've gotten a lot better at morality since the Bible was written. For instance, contrary to the dictates of your holy book, we don't own slaves or women any more. We give everyone equal rights. That's nowhere to be found in your holy book because it was written by people who were still very new to the philosophy of ethics, and didn't understand that women and people of other ethnicities were just as human and deserved to be treated as equals.

Likewise, we've learned that it's a bad idea to kill children for being obstinate, so we don't do that, even though it's in the Bible. Have you ever killed any of your children for backtalk, Rick? It's in your Bible.

When you go to church, does your wife ever speak? If not, why don't you punish her? Your holy book clearly states -- IN THE NEW TESTAMENT -- that women should keep their mouths shut in church.

No, Rick, your god is not particularly moral, nor is your holy book. We can do much better with science.

If you're really interested (chortle) in learning, here's a good place to start:

The Origins of Virtue, by Matt Ridley

http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Virtue-Instincts-Evolution-Cooperation/dp/0140264450/ref=pd_sim_b_4

Rick b said...

You clearly show your ignorance of the Bible, But then again I really doubt you have ever read the Book, You just pick and choose the verses you want to try and prove your right.

The issue of Slaves, go do your research, Some slaves allowed them selves to be that way. They owed a debt they could not pay, so they paid their debt off by being a slave.

Others were taken as slaves due to war. Nothing wrong in my opinion if you go to war and win, then either take slaves or kill them, thats the cost of losing battle.

Then the issue of killing your kids, First off, they are adults or young men, not little kids, Then this was for the Jews only, go back and read the Bible, their were Jews and Gentiles, The Jews were given rules by God that did not apply to gentiles unless the gentile converted.

As to women Keeping quite, Again, read your Bible, that was not a "Law" given by God, Paul said that, and he made it clear.

Also your saying we have a conscience and we know right from wrong, Yea, that simply just evolved, I steal from you and some how just know it was wrong. Thats stupid. Evolution teaches survival of the fittest, the strong win over the weak.

I'm just waiting to see a murder case go before the courts and the killer plead evolution, by saying, I'm simply weeding out the weak.

Also I do not act good because I'm afraid my God will whoop my ass, I did submission style fighting for 6 years, I love fighting and in the Bible, God is a warrior. I have no problem with fighting or telling it like it is. Now I suspect your going to tell me I am wrong about the Bible, If you tell me I am wrong, then provide verses to back it up.

Rick b said...

hambydammit,
I was thinking about what you said about us simply choosing to do the right thing. That just does not happen, I know you do not believe this and dont care, but the Bible tells us that if we are left to our own devices we will choose evil.

Well I am back in college going for an associates degree, one of the classes I needed to take was, Psychology class. They told us about some experiment called "the standford prison experiment" You can check out the site here. http://www.prisonexp.org/

Some people playing cops/guards, you would think they would want to do the right thing, but nope, never happened. They did not choose to do the right thing, it went horribly wrong, so much for us choosing to do the right thing. But if I had to guess, you will simply blow it off as a fluke. But remember, that was not the only experiment of it's kind.

Rick b said...

When I took psychology class the teacher said pretty much the same thing as you, we are generally good and want to do the right thing.

I told him I do not believe that because when I read the news paper or turn on the news I only hear about people lying, or cheating or stealing. Everybody from rock stars and movie stars to religious figures to the average Joe.

It seems according to the news pretty much everyone is corrupt or lying. We even have foreign country's wanting to build weapons of mass destruction and kill us.

We must teach our kids to be honest and tell the truth, it seems lying simply comes natural to them. So How do you figure we all are good and simply want to do the right thing? Because some guy said so. How do you know he did not lie. You tell me you take responsibility for your actions, You mean you while an atheist have never lied for any reason? I find that hard to believe.

If you have, then so much for manning up and taking responsibility for your actions. Even if you tell me you never lie, which I find hard to believe, you never steal or have stolen, what about looking at another women and thinking, wow I would love to do her, all while your married.

Then your simply so honest you run to your wife and take responsibility for your actions and say, sorry babe, I saw another women and thought in my mind, wow If only I could sleep with her. Your simply that loving and honest?

Interested said...

Rick I had to jup in here. Looking at another woman and wanting to jump her bones is normal. Even at my age I see guys I'd like to take on. I might even say that about you, if I were younger...there is nothing wrong with the thought. It is perfectly normal. Coming clean and taking responsibility is not confessing to my spouse (which I don't have) but you get the point. If I think that and pass it up, it is just a thought and I did not act on it. To confess to my spouse would be to remove the responsibility from myself and put the burden on him. To make him feel insecure and unsure of me when there is absolutely no reason to do so. I had a silly little fantasy about you...nothing happened and nothing will happen...why create a stumbling block in my relationship with my spouse when it is only a fantasy?

Rick b said...

Well according to the Bible it is wrong to lust, But even if you say it's ok and justify it, still we are not normally good people. Like I said, look over the prison experiment, They wanted to go two weeks, they lasted 6 days at best, My how fast they went down hill.

Then all the evil we read about in the news paper, and see on the news. I thought we were all getting better? If so why do I never hear about this on the news? If they have a good person story, then they have 200 evil people stories in return.

Why do we have to teach children to tell the truth, we dont teach them to lie, how is it that lying comes natural? Hambydammint cannot honestly say he is so moral of a person that he no longer lies. If he lies and never comes clean, then he is not taking responsibility for his actions. He cannot tell me he has never lied, cheated or stole any thing since being an atheist.

He might do it so little that it is like it never happens, but it still happens. As I told you before, I am not perfect, I have tried to kill people, I really wanted them dead, I have been in tons of fights, chased by the police, had a restraining order put on me by a pastor of a church. Nope I am not perfect, Do I or have I as a christian, cheated, lied and stolen? Yes I have. I can admit it to.

I can admit being like this, and I can take full responsibility for my actions. But was their a time I did not? You bet their have been, but I will not stand before God some day and try and enter heaven by my "Good" works, I will only be allowed to enter because I believe He paid the price for me to enter, and I took Him up on His offer and said Yes I will take the free gift of salvation from you.

Rick b said...

Interested, when you wrote and said I had a silly little fantasy about you...nothing happened and nothing will happen...

That made me laugh, First thing I thought was, Her fantasy was me saying I no longer believe in Jesus or follow Him, I am now an atheist.

But also on a more honest and serious matter, I do like you as a person, Despite how I come across I do like you and think of us as friends, more along the lines of pen pals with the whole world reading what we write.

Yes we have had some heated times, but thats ok, no one is perfect. I'm just glad to see your still alive and as near as I can tell, doing well. Rick

Interested said...

No that was not my fantasy but....I want to address one thing you said previously. You spoke of the news, that it is all bad and you are so right...but it isn't as bad as you think. The media doesn't benefit from reporting on good news. Good news or no news is the norm; sensationalism comes from a few and that's what the media gets paid to report.

He is an example from your city. Stats from 2009 list the poplulation of St Paul at 287,151 and murders within the city at 18. That is 15,952 people who did not murder anyone. I would say that most people in St. Paul refrain from killing people and I doubt they are all christians. In fact I know there is a group of at least 218 atheist and not one has been arrested for murder, rape, theft or any other crime.

So, I'm not saying that ALL people are always good but it is the norm for people to do what is right. We do it because it is socially acceptable and we get along better with our fellow man if we behave in a civil manner.

I have heard about the prison test you mentioned but I have forgotten the details. I do remember it was suspended; I may have more to say about that later.

..and yes. I count you as a friend as well.

Interested said...

What I meant to say is 15,952 people who did not murder to each one who did murder. New keybord (it doesn't spell any better than the last one)

Rick b said...

Interested, Your correct about bad news selling and that goods news does happen. That aside we still do not tend to do good if given a choice.

First off, the prisons are growing and not decreasing. Then Children lie, we try and teach them not to, but we never have to teach them to.

Then the prison experiment, they had a chance to do good, but choose to do evil and it went from normal, Day one to all hell broke loose and stopping things in less that 6 days.

As to your fantasy about me, I honestly did not think it was me walking away from my beliefs, I was being sarcastic.