An atheist's journey to find a place in the world.
1. State the problem... Where did life Come from?2. Formulate the hypothesis... The Big Bang? Maybe as some have suggested, aliens seeded the earth with us?3. Make observations... Ummm, really we cannot. We do not see or have evidence of aliens seeding the earth with more of us. We do not see life arising from non-life.4. Design the experiment.... What experiment? Taking a bunch of deadly gas that the scientists believe life arose from and start zapping it with electricity to see if life arises from it?5. Interpret data ... What Data? There is none.6. Draw conclusions... My conclusion is you guys are the dishonest ones, since you push evolution as fact without any evidence.7. Report results... Atheists are lying and/or are simply wrong.How do you figure Adam and Eve are so hard to believe when you believe we came from non-life and have no evidence for it?1. The human body (or the body of any other creature) cannot live without most internal organs, such as the heart, the lungs, the liver, et cetera. Remove any of these organs, and the specimen dies. This implies that the entire body was created at one point in time.2. Natural selection cannot produce new genes; it only selects among preexisting characteristics.3. Mutations are the only proposed mechanism by which new genetic material becomes available for evolution.4. Almost all observable mutations are harmful; many are fatal.5. No known mutation has ever produced a form of life having both greater complexity and greater viability than its ancestors.Charles Darwin had grave doubts about his theory. Near the end of his life he said... "Not one change of species into another is on record... we cannot prove that a single species has been changed." SOURCE: "My Life and Letters", Volume 1.Let's add to all this, Piltdown man, Nebraska Man, and other hoaxes which were created to try and prove evolution. Sad that hoaxes are created to try and prove a belief that cannot be supported with any evidence. In the video, the person says, "Do you believe that a loving God would send a hard working, morally upright person to hell?" She is saying we, Christians, believe this. You are wrong.First, all atheists are dishonest and here is why. Either you never read the Bible and claim it is full of problems, or you claim you read the Bible, and really are being honest about it, but you did not read it well enough and are possibly just ignorant, or did read it really well and are purposely lying to people. So if you never read it and claim it is full of problems, then you are dishonest. The Bible tells us that hell was created for the Devil and His angels. Matthew 25:41 says, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."Hell was not created for us. The Bible tells us that God does not want us to go to hell, but to be with Him. He does love us so much He died for us and wants us to be with Him.John 3:16 tells us God died for us.
Hello interested, for some reason after I posted the first part of my reply, it was deleted after putting up the second. So it is a little backwards. the first reply should be second, the second should be first just so everyone reading can make sense of it all. This was the first part.PART 1.Hello Interested.I will give my thoughts on this video and cover everything point by point. I believe I have already addressed most of these issues, but will go over them again non-the-less and just so you are aware, when I say (you) I am referring to the author of the video and not you, but do feel what I say to the author does apply to most all atheists.The video starts out saying, "Dear mom, dad, and family, you stood on my door and shared with me." Let me remind you, and a huge majority of other atheists out there, that if you really want be be fair and accurate, it is you guys that started it with many of us. You start blogs and websites devoting your time and effort to writing about a God you claim does not exist. You tell people through these sites that God is evil and hateful and does not exist. I feel it is only fair to come and share the truth with you guys since more times than not what you guys say about God and the Bible is clearly wrong. I have pointed these issues out before and will again give examples of this for any person that is reading this for the first time.If you guys did not start blogs and websites about God and the Bible, then it would stand to reason I and others would not be here talking to you. Also, as I have pointed out before, many atheists have said, "I don't hate God. I cannot hate someone I don't believe in. Yet, much of what is said to us Christians is or has been hateful and pretty much attacks what we believe. Yet, as I said before, I don't see you guys writing blogs and websites about the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, etc. They don't exist, but you don't write about them. And you guys don't write about groups that do exist and are promoting hate and killing people. Take the Nazi groups or the KKK, for example. These guys clearly hate others and are pushing an agenda of hate. This shows you do hate God, because you claim He does not exist, yet you write about Him, while avoiding the people that do exist and ignore them.In the video, the person says, "We demand respect while we intrude into yours." As I have said clearly before, I am not asking for respect. I am asking atheists to be honest and have given many examples of how they are not. Then, I am not intruding when you write about what I believe and tell me it is all lies and evil. You don't see us Christians starting blogs and websites talking about atheists. When and if they pop up, it is a rebuttle to things said about us. The person in the video says that they must draw some very clear lines in the sand. I say she is drawing lines in the mud, since much of what she says is not as clear as people want to believe.In the video, she quotes the Oxford Dictionary "Theory" "A statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed" You say we dismiss the evidence of evolution and therefore are using the word theory in an intellectually dishonest way. I say that it is in fact you guys that are doing this, and here's why. First of all, as many of your great heroes, as it were, admit that they don't really know if the big bang happened or not, they can only assume it did. Then, they start from the fact that life was already here on earth. They admit they have no evidence as to how we really got here and simply assume. How is that evidence? The scientific method states in this order.1. State the problem.2. Formulate the hypothesis.3. Make observations.4. Design the experiment.5. Interpret data.6. Draw conclusions.7. Report results.So, lets break this down and look at it from the idea of Evolution, shall we?
Part 3:Atheists claim and act like God is just sending everyone to hell. Well, I hate to disappoint everyone, but the Bible tells us it is NOT HIS WILL THAT ANYONE SHOULD PERISH. 2 Peter 3:9 says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."God goes out of His way to try and save us; it's us who reject Him and choose to go to hell. God does not send anyone to hell. We choose to go to hell by rejecting Him.The Bible again tells us that God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked.Eze 33:11 says, "Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"These are just a few examples that show either Atheists do not read the Bible, since they don't know what it says, or they read it and know what it says, but now are lying. They know many have not read the Bible, and you know people will simply assume you know what you're talking about and simply believe you. This goes back to the issue of respect the lady in the video mentioned.I really don't care if you believe the Bible or not, I just want you guys to be honest. Either admit you never read the Bible, or if you say you read it, then give full and honest quotes, not just partial quotes. I say this because I read on many blogs and websites written by Athiests, that you guys are saying we are misleading by what we say. Well, I am honest enough to say, some people claiming to be Christians might be lying or misleading people, and I have no issue with you guys calling them out. I call those Christians out also. But, if your going to call them out on being dishonest, then call your own people out to be honest or expect me to do it. Now, the issue with the murderer being forgiven? I just love this one. You guys are always going on about how God is evil and kills everyone. Now, here God is saying He will show grace and mercy to someone if they simply repent and believe, and what do you guys say? That's unfair and not right. Man, you guys really cannot make up your minds. Like the Bible says, God died for everyone and loves us. Yes, the people who commit murder did some very evil things. They, like us, made some mistakes, and they too should and can be forgiven. The issue with saying all these people who are going to hell are morally good people. I beg to differ with that one.Everyone looks good on the outside and when they are around others. As some of you are aware, some men beat their wives or children, yet they do this in private and no one just does this in front of everyone. Some people lie to others, yet unless they are flat out busted, people assume they did not lie. Have you read the newspapers lately? All these hard working, loving, moral people are making the news for lying, killing, stealing, molesting kids, you name it. Yep, we are morally upright people.
PART 4:Why is it a big deal if I believe people lived to be almost a 1,000 years old? I read accounts all the time of people wanting to live forever and hoping science will find a way. Some people with lots of money are even being cryovact hoping if science ever finds a way to allow people to live forever, that they will be thawed out and brought back. Science is trying now to do that, but yet you guys take issue with the Bible saying people lived long.The person in the video say, "If we/I believe that the Church, God's house, must take out an insurance policy against disaster we have nothing more to talk about." Here are many issues showing you do not know the Bible.First, the church is not a building; the church is the believers. I am the church, not the building.Second, most states REQUIRE people to have insurance on houses and buildings. It's a law. But, if we did not have insurance, you guys would criticize us for not having it and claiming we are breaking the law, or find something to complain about.Third, you will never find in the Bible where Jesus says once we choose to follow Him, we will be free of pain and suffering. Even Jesus said this temple will be destroyed and not one brick will be left upon another. So, we as believers know these things will happen, and it's possible our building will be vandalized, or they will wear down over time from natural wear and tear, or a natural disaster will happen.The issue of doctors working on someone and then saying it was divine healing - not everyone says that. I believe God gives everyone natural talents and some have more than others, so some doctors are better than others. But, the Bible tells us that Luke was a doctor, and so I have no problems with seeing doctors. If something happens, and I get divinely healed, then that healing is different than needing a doctor.I love the issue saying, "Do we think it is ok to thrust a sword into the heart of a baby?" Yet, you guys seem to think it is ok to thrust a pair of scissors or a knive into the skull of a baby while still in the womb. Or it's ok to have the BABY come part way out of the mother, then kill it in a painful way. Thats ok, and you guys never say anything about that. As a matter of fact, you fight to allow it and call it a legal right. Also, I find it rather funny, you guys post a picture of a baby and say, "It's cruel to thrust a sword into a little baby." The Bible does not say, thrust the tip of a sword into a baby; you guys said that. The Bible simply said kill everyone young and old.Now, like it or not, that is a part of war, people die. I don't see you guys writing about stopping abortion or even partial birth abortion. As I said, please explain how the Bible is wrong and cruel, yet killing an unborn child while still in the womb by crushing its skull and brains is not cruel?
PART 5:You guys say, "It's not fair that a God of love would not save people from a tsunami." I hate to break it to you, but God does not even save true believers from death. Just read the book called, "Fox's Book of Martyrs". Even if you don't believe it, these people were killed just for believing in God. The Bible also tells us that natural disasters will happen.I had to laugh when they said, "You believe a loving God will allow a child to die in his parents grieving arms?" You make no effort to stop someone from killing a baby. Even if you choose to say, the baby is not a baby till it is born, it's funny how a baby is taken half-way out of the mothers womb, and it can be killed in a gruesome fashion, and thats ok, yet if that child was not killed he or she would live.Our currant president, Obama, either passed a law, or is trying, that states that if a mother has an abortion, and the abortion is botched for some reason and the baby is fully removed from the mothers womb and lives on it's own, the baby can still be killed and it's a legal abortion. Also, it's funny how people do not believe the baby is a baby, so it can be aborted legally, yet if a person kills a pregnant women, and even if that women is only 2 months along or less, the person can be brought up on a double murder. It's a baby and it's murder if the baby is killed by someone trying to harm the mother, yet when a doctor kills the baby it's not really a baby and simply a legal abortion.Can you guys say, Lying Hypocrites! I can and I did. Now you guys take issue with the bible saying there were giants on the earth. First of all, the Bible does not say how tall most of these people were in exact feet and inches. Only one is said to be 6 cubits and a span, which is equivalent to about 9'6". Here is a link to an article talking about a guy that is 8 feet 1 inch tall.http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-09-21/entertainment/17933319_1_tallest-man-growth-hormone-big-appleHow come if we can prove giant dinosaurs existed, giant redwood trees exist even to this day, giant squid, whales, and other creatures exist, and we have records of humans pushing over 8 feet tall, then why is it so hard to believe in giant humans?Then she goes on to say, "You believe in supermen?" No, not supermen, just one guy that God granted super strength to, but under certain circumstances. Are you guys familiar with Greek mythology? I don't believe in it, but I do believe there is some truth to the story of Hercules. I believe they got that story from the story of Samson. You take issue with Jonah. Again, if God really did create the earth, then is it really that hard for Him to create a sea creature big enough to swallow a man to bring him someplace? If we humans can create submarines, why can't God use or create a creature for the same purpose?Oh-no Unicorns? Really? Is it so hard to believe in them? Many creature have gone extinct. Maybe they did exist at one time. People even to this day believe in trolls, fairies, and other creatures. I'm honestly surprised you guys did not mention fire-breathing dragons. The Bible mentions fire-breathing dragons. I happen to believe they existed for a few reasons. One reason is that there are stories throughout history of fire-breathing dragons. I believe people really did encounter them and that is where the stories come from. Secondly, they are mentioned in the Bible. While on the subject of fire and fire-breathing dragons, have you ever heard of the Bombardier beetle? Here is a you tube video link of the beetle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pib9qT-pccI
Part 6:The beetle has twin ‘exhaust tubes’ at his tail. This beetle fires into the face of his enemies boiling-hot noxious gases with a loud pop. If a mere beetle can do this and we have evidence of it, then how hard is it to believe fire-breathing dragons existed?On the issue of flying chariots, if God created the entire universe, then making a flying chariot really is not impossible. But, then again, you say we're crazy for believing these things, yet you guys believe Life arose from non-life and speculate that maybe aliens put us here, or lightning struck gases that created us or we arrived from crystals. You guys don't find those things crazy, yet we believe in God and that's crazy?I believe God can raise people from the dead; He created us. As to the issue of Leviathan, why is that so hard to believe? We clearly have evidence of dinosaurs. They were huge creatures; a Leviathan could be a form of dinosaur. The Leviathan is a sea creature, and we see pictures down through history of fishermen encountering giant squid or something close to them. Now we found out they really do exist. Scientists have found beached whales and whales that were killed for food having giant squid marking upon them from when the squid attacked them. So, is it really hard to believe in a Leviathan type sea creature in light of the evidence of other giant sea creatures and story's passed down through history of people being attacked by them?It's funny you mention healing mud. It was not the mud that healed, it was Jesus that healed. He simply used mud and chose to heal that way. If you look down through history, there are what you might call strange ways of people trying to heal others, like witch doctors and voodoo, the use of mud and bugs and herbs, and other stuff. But that is clearly not an issue for you guys, only Jesus using mud is an issue.I love how you take issue with a talking donkey. Our government spends money every year trying to train monkeys to talk and other animals. People make a big deal out of these and even try getting birds to talk, yet that does not bother you guys and you never take issue with this stuff, only the Bible.Like the lady in the video says, "If at the end of the day, you feel my position is laughable, unreasonable, even fantastic, despite all the evidence for it," yet there is zero evidence that we arrived from aliens, crystals, or came from poison gases when lighting struck, then I guess we have nothing more to talk about.The lady goes onto say, "Please treat me with respect and my boundaries." You cannot gain respect when you lie and twist the scriptures by saying they say things when they really do not, or purposely leaving parts out to make it say something it does not. When you go online, blog and write about what I believe is wrong and I'm crazy, then I come and defend my position, and you tell me I am overstepping your boundaries, then I suggest you either be honest in what you say and give the full story, or don't trash what I believe and just simply expect me to sit by and do nothing.
Last part:When you finally start being fair, balanced, and honest, then we will have nothing more to talk about. As far as the title of the blog or author calling themselves "The Thinking Atheist", I disagree. I dont believe they want to think about these things I said. They find ways to justify their position on abortion while saying a child being murdered in the Bible is morally wrong. They say what I believe is crazy while believing we arrived by either crystals, aliens, or arose from poisonous gases, and that's not crazy. There is evidence of giant creatures, people trying to get animals to talk and people using dirty water, mud, feces, and other stuff to heal people. Look to India and the Hindus and witch doctors. The thinking Atheist knows these things and does not care, or does not want to hear about these things and look into them honestly. This shows they are not the moral, kind, caring person they claim God sends to hell.They then ignore the groups like the KKK and the New Nazi movement that would kill innocent babies, and instead write about a God they don't believe in and complain about a book, The Bible, they feel is wrong. This is evidence that they really don't care or think. When you start taking issue with the people and problems at hand, then I will take you seriously and agree we have something more to talk about. Rick b
You start blogs and websites devoting your time and effort to writing about a God you claim does not exist. You tell people through these sites that God is evil and hateful and does not existMany blogs are started in order to take the journey from belief to non belief. I think many are just rants to clarify the thoughts of the writer. However, some feel it is their duty to “evangelize” to the believers and in all fairness, there are just as many blogs and sites that evangelize to non believers.I don't see you guys writing blogs and websites about the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, etcYou are right but that is because there are not churches and organizations promoting them. No one in government has dedicated a day of prayer to the Easter Bunny or to Santa Clause.I am asking atheists to be honest and have given many examples of how they are notI don’t understand why or how you think we as atheist are being dishonest. Most of us are still on our journey and learning as we go."Theory" "A statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed"We disagree on the definition so there is no further point for discussion.Where did life Come from?Rick: Science can and does provide answers BUT NOT all answers. Me:WE admit that we do not know everything about the beginnings of life but we do not attribute the unknown to the supernatural. Your use of the scientific steps is an attempt to prove something but you are only forming questions with no answers
Rick: Atheists are lying and/or are simply wrong.Me: Unfortunately, you consider anything with which you disagree, a lie.Rick: How do you figure Adam and Eve are so hard to believe when you believe we came from non-life and have no evidence for it?Me: The problem here is that you do not accept the evidence that is available. There are multiple sources for evolution evidence and the majority of the world understands and accepts it. The points you posted have all been refuted by science in previous posts. Also the hoaxes you mentioned have long ago been exposed by SCIENTIST not by believers. The community of science polices itself and exposes frauds and hoaxes in short order.Rick: "Do you believe that a loving God would send a hard working, morally upright person to hell?"Me:I think the speaker was comparing the contrasting situations: A good person who does not believe would go to hell even though he had lived a generous and loving life while a criminal, murderer, general bad guy could confess on his deathbed that he believes and go to heaven. Not a place I would want to be. It seems to me that a lot of criminals find god in jail. Often they are released and go back to a life of crime. I know not all but many do.
Rick: First, all atheists are dishonest and here is why. Either you never read the BibleMe:I won’t speak for others but I have and do read the bible. It is a poorly written book about a people who lived in superstition and ignorance. Many of the stories are allegory and not about real events. One reason we cannot have an intelligent conversation about the bible is because we disagree on its authority. It is the only source for many of the things you accept and I do not accept anything on only one source. The bible is a moot point because it is unreliable as history so I will not address it here again. One last thing: I do know that there are many if not most believers who have not read the bible. They only know the parts preached on Sunday morning. Most ministers ignore the difficult parts. I also know that the most renown bible scholars are non believers. Many who study the bible in depth, like me, find it completely unbelievable. Rick: Have you read the newspapers lately?Me: This is a good point. Yes I have. Do you realize that the majority of those committing crimes profess to be Christians? Did you ever look to see how many so called “holy men” are convicted of molestation, fraud and downright theft? I do. It is completely unacceptable to believe that a belief in god helps these people.
Rick: Why is it a big deal if I believe people lived to be almost a 1,000 years oldMe: None, but you don’t have much company.Rick: "Do we think it is ok to thrust a sword into the heart of a baby?" .. think it is ok to thrust a pair of scissors or a knife into the skull of a baby while still in the wombMe: I hate this issue. I can’t stand to think about what happens in abortion and would never do it but I try to see the horror of a 14 year old rape victim having to live through the ordeal of birth. I am glad I do not have to face this one…Rick: As I said, please explain how the Bible is wrong and cruel, yet killing an unborn child while still in the womb by crushing its skull and brains is not cruel?Me: There is a difference in killing for revenge and abortion.I cannot compare the two.Rick: ignore the groups like the KKK and the New Nazi movement that would kill innocent babiesMe: These groups have never been ignored by atheist or anyone else for that matter. Even today the KKK participants are being tried and convicted of their crimes. Rick we must agree to disagree. I can never accept that Noah took 2 of every animal on a boat for a year, that a virgin gave birth, a man/god walked on water, raised people from the dead, including himself or that I will someday dwell in a fiery hell because I don’t believe in a sky daddy who gives a damn about what I do or don’t do on this earth. I have one life and I am living it to the best of my ability. I care about my fellow man, I contribute to society in positive ways and I love my life. I am a good person but I cannot believe in any supernatural being.
Hello Interested,Well I am working my intern at the place I told you about. I am really busy, working from 1:30 till 10:30 Week days and weekends from 1:30 till 11:30, plus 30 minute drive to and then another 30 minutes home.So I dont have time to reply to much, So I will start with this. People in the news committing crimes, You cannot prove they are mostly Christians and I cannot prove they are mostly Athiests. The point is these people are not morally upright as the author suggests we are. Then it seems every time I say, just because someone says they are a christian does not make it so, atheists try and harp on that saying, yes they are because they said so.I can dress up as a cop on Halloween or anytime of the year for that matter, it does not mean I am. Then Even in the Bible we read an account of People Saying to Jesus on the day of Judgment, Lord, Lord. First off they call Him Lord. Then they say, Did we not feed the poor in your name, did we not cast out demons in your name, did we no perform miracles in your name?It seems they are playing the, I'm a moral person for helping the poor, or they are playing the I am a "spiritual" Leader or pastor or something by saying that cast out demons and did Miracles in the name of Jesus.But what Does Jesus say? Jesus said, Depart from Me FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU. They claim to know Jesus, But Jesus said He does not know them. So people can say what they want, but that simply does not make it true.
Rick I remember you asking about children lying. I read this today. You may find it interesting.http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,179789
I read the article about lying.Someone claimed they never lied to their parents, but their kids are lying to them, I dont believe they never lied to their parents.Many parents teach their kids about Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy Etc. When you do that you are lying to your kids. You can justify why you tell them about these guys anyway you want, but a Lie is a lie.I never taught my kids about them, from day one we said they do not exist. We all are born liars, we are and were never taught how to lie. You are told by your parents for example, dont eat snacks before dinner, but you do. Your parents ask you about it, you lie, I never ate a cookie.I have never in my life meet a couple or single parent that says, My child is so perfect they never once lied to me. If they did something like stealing, hitting, whatever it was they admitted it as soon as I asked them about it, that never happened.We need to teach our kids not to lie, cheat, steal etc.
Rick B said I am asking atheists to be honest and have given many examples of how they are notInterested said I don’t understand why or how you think we as atheist are being dishonest. Most of us are still on our journey and learning as we go.You guys might still be learning, I can live with that, but still if your going to quote the Bible and you honestly have never read it from cover to cover (I know you said you did) But I am speaking of people who have not, Then be honest and say, In full dis-closer I have not read the entire Bible. This never happens and make people dishonest.If you have read the entire Bible and you going to say, here is why I believe God is evil, He destroyed the entire earth and I feel for that reason he is wicked and evil.Then I believe you are again being dishonest because as I have said before, if you really did read the entire bible you would know that God gave the entire earth over a hundred years to repent and these people would have lived, and also had a way of escape. Yet you dishonest by not saying that. To be fair you should re-word it as, I read in the Bible God destroyed the entire earth and yes the Bible also claims God gave them a hundred years to repent, but with that added I still believe God is cruel and evil and here is why...That never happens, and you know that never happens. I recall going back and forth with you over this issue, I pointed out a few places where you said the Bible says or teaches this....Then I said well you should have added this....That would have been totally honest. But you never came on and said, Rick your right, I'm sorry, the verse were their and I should have added them, next time I will. Other atheists I have pointed this out to also never do this. But yet whenever anyone (atheist) Seems to feel I am lacking information or forgot something, they feel I should add it to be fair and honest. If I forget something or missed something I am honest enough to admit it.
Interested said One reason we cannot have an intelligent conversation about the bible is because we disagree on its authority. It is the only source for many of the things you accept and I do not accept anything on only one source.This is where you are wrong, The Bible is not a single source. Broken down the Bible is 66 different books, written by 40 authors over the span of 1,000's of years and covering different continents.So no it is not a single source. Then we have the dead sea scrolls as evidence and we have through the use of archeology discovered many places names of people and coins etc, mentioned in the Bible.
As I said I do not find any authority in the bible as history. It is true that many of the places are real places...I don't deny that. And the Dead Sea scrolls....well I don't think you have read them or you would not so quickly count them as a source. They differ from the cannonized bible A LOT. Most christians dismiss them as trash.Abortion is to hard for me to think about and I'm glad I don't but our government should not interfere in such personal decisions. If and when the fetus is legally given human status by the supreme court then there will be more to talk about but as it stands now, it is a fetus and not a child, legally. In my mind it is horrible but I would not change the law because one cannot legislate morals; morals are personal.
Interested said If and when the fetus is legally given human status by the supreme court then there will be more to talk about but as it stands now, it is a fetus and not a child, legally.Talk about a bunch of hypocrites, The government says it's not a human when it comes to abortion, but if the women is murdered, then it all of a sudden is declared a child by the same government and the killer if caught will be tried for a double murder. You simply cannot have it both ways.
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