Wednesday, August 1, 2007

God vs God or Truth vs Truth

"The true value of a man is not determined by his possession, supposed or real, of Truth, but rather by his sincere exertion to get to the Truth. It is not possession of the Truth, but rather the pursuit of Truth by which he extends his powers and in which his ever-growing perfectibility is to be found. Possession makes one passive, indolent, and proud. If God were to hold all Truth concealed in his right hand, and in his left only the steady and diligent drive for Truth, albeit with the proviso that I would always and forever err i n the process, and to offer me the choice, i would with all humility take the left hand."
--Gotthold Lessing, Anti-Goeze(1778)

I have, for sometime now, been a daily reader and sometime commenter on Mormon Coffee. My daughter became Mormon a few years ago and it has disturbed me greatly; thus the search for understanding.

I have come to the conclusion that the evangelicals have a very mean and vindictive god while the Mormons see a god as almost an aside to their religion. Both camps make very interesting arguments but neither is convincing; I'm still an atheist for like Lessing I would still chose the left hand.

19 comments:

rick b said...

Hello Interested, I am Rick who posts on the Mormon coffee blog. I want to let you know that the God I serve and believe is not mean and vindictive like you think, it is a matter of you do not read the Bible and understand what it teaches, Then the LDS who try and make God out like that do not know the Bible either.

Then you said your an Atheist, If you really are an Atheist, Why does it bother you that your daughter is a Mormon.

I look at it like this, if your wrong and God is real, but you reject His gift by being an Atheist then you will not enter heaven, but if you daughter is serving a false god then neither of you are doing good by either rejecting God or following a false God.

If you have any questions about God, I will gladly try and answer them, we can talk on your blog, my blog or by way of Private email.

Then if your not up to talking, at least check out the website, www.khouse.org Lots of goodsolid info on the Bible their. Rick b

Interested said...

Rick
"Then you said your an Atheist, If you really are an Atheist, Why does it bother you that your daughter is a Mormon."

I care because I love her and I see a serious danger in mormonism. She has children and as you know children are taught from birth to worship JS and take on all kinds of responsibility. I have begun to see the toll it (mormonism) is taking on her life and that of her children. I would have no problem if she were a member of a traditional church, even though I do not believe in the supernatural, most christian religions are harmless.

rick b said...

Interested said :I care because I love her and I see a serious danger in mormonism.

I agree, But I love people and see a serious danger in All cults and even being an Atheist. That is, if God is real and Jesus is who He claims to be, then Hell is real and your going their for all of eterinty. That is why I share Jesus with people and that is why God sent His Son Jesus to die for us. Rick b

rick b said...

Hey interested, in your topic called: Omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent…really? I do not see a place to post replys, Am I correct ordid I simply missit? Rick b

thekingpin68 said...

Hi,

Your site was mentioned to me, and I too have concerns with the LDS religion. I am working on a PhD dissertation in Theology and my topic is the problem of evil. If you so wish, please feel free to scan read the following articles related to the topic, including my MPhil dissertation. Also please feel free to comment on the articles on my blog.

Cheers:)

Russ

God and two wills

privation

last things

theodicy

five books

MPhil

Interested said...

Hello King and thanks for the links. I am particularlly interesded in you posting on privation. I need to read it more in depth so more later.

Interested said...

Rick I have corrected the problem on my latest post. Thanks for the alert.

Guitanguran said...

I was interested in your statement I've listed below:

"I have come to the conclusion that the evangelicals have a very mean and vindictive god."

I'm curious as to how you came to that conclusion.

Interested said...

That statement was made in comparing the mormon view of god and the evangelical view. The mormons do not have a hell or at least they have a way to get out, even after one is dead. On the other hand, evangelicals seem to believe that most people are going to burn in a dreadful hell now matter what they do in this life.

I don't believe in any god but if I had to coose one I would at least want him to be forgiving, even after I screwed up.

Guitanguran said...

"On the other hand, evangelicals seem to believe that most people are going to burn in a dreadful hell now matter what they do in this life."

"I don't believe in any god but if I had to c(h)oose one I would at least want him to be forgiving, even after I screwed up."

Wow, I'm almost certain you and I aren't reading the same Bible. On that 'most people are going to burn' thing, I'm pretty sure there's an "all who will..." clause to get the same fire insurance policy. Sounds all-inclusive to me.

The 'forgiving, even after I screwed up' is like part of the Jesus package, the way I read it. I have take advantage of that part pretty much every day. Otherwise, I'd be sunk!

rick b said...

Interested, Your incorret about God again, I know you said you read the Bible but God does not send people to hell, people go to hell by their own Choice. The Bible is very clear, God created Hell for the Devil and his angels, not man. But people go to hell by not wanting to go to heaven. I know you will say, but I want to go to heaven, or I know people who say they want to go to heaven.

But the Bible is clear, Their is only ONE WAY into heaven, that is by believing upon Jesus as Lord And Saviour, if you reject him, you reject heaven. So it's not God sending you to hell, you allow your self to go their. Rick b

Interested said...

You play with words Rick but I'll leave it at that.

rick b said...

Interested said said...

You play with words Rick but I'll leave it at that.


How about you tell me how I am playing with words. Honestly, you say, I want evidence, I say you really do not, then you accuse me of word games but then say, I will not go into detail. This tells me I am correct, but then if you say, ok, I'll show you how, I will provide Scripture if that is what you need. But just remember, the more you know the more accountable after death you will be. Rick b

Interested said...

(Jeremiah 48)
42 And Moab shall be destroyed from being a people, because he hath magnified himself against the LORD.
43 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, shall be upon thee, O inhabitant of Moab, saith the LORD.
44 He that fleeth from the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that getteth up out of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for I will bring upon it, even upon Moab, the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.
45 They that fled stood under the shadow of Heshbon because of the force: but a fire shall come forth out of Heshbon, and a flame from the midst of Sihon, and shall devour the corner of Moab, and the crown of the head of the tumultuous ones.
46 Woe be unto thee, O Moab! the people of Chemosh perisheth: for thy sons are taken captives, and thy daughters captives.

Rick this sounds like the god of the bible is a pretty nasty character.

I said he, god as you believe, sends people to hell. You said they go by choice. That is playing with words. If I reject god I only reject god. I am not choosing to go to hell. But you will say I have no choice but to go to hell if I reject god. How is that my choice?

rick b said...

Hell is in short not being in the Presence of God, If your not with God then it is hell, Also As I said before, hell was created for the devil not man, but man will go their.

then you say God cannot be just because he does not remove evil people, then you quote scripture showing God destroying people and you say, He's evil. rick b

Interested said...

I think you are beginning to see my point. Why should it be so confusing for us mortals?

You said in an earlier post that I should read the bible and ask for understanding. But the more I read the more sure I am that god cannot exist.

rick b said...

Interested said...
I think you are beginning to see my point. Why should it be so confusing for us mortals?

You said in an earlier post that I should read the bible and ask for understanding. But the more I read the more sure I am that god cannot exist.


Your confused because your human and not God, you do not understand everything, No one understands the entire Bible free and clear with out problems.

But when you say, The more you read the more sure you are God cannot exist, I would ask, why do you come to that conclusion? Rick b

Interested said...

A frequent commenter on Mormon Coffee made this response to a post. I think it also makes a case for me, although I don’t she intended to support what I believe. I am not saying she did but only borrowing her words.


"I knew an elderly woman years ago who had decided to buy a hearing aid through the mail (not a good idea). It required that she take her own ear impression (a doubly bad idea especially for an elderly person). When I questioned her about it she said, “I FEEL this is something I should do.” I guess she, was in a way, bearing witness to a deeply held conviction. I knew I couldn’t change her mind.”

Evidence and facts don’t have much of a chance against emotions and religious zeal.

rick b said...

Interested said
Evidence and facts don’t have much of a chance against emotions and religious zeal.


If your implying that some people have such great emotions and zeal that they simply believe, then that may be the case with some but not with me. As I already shared a bit about my background I simply came to Christ because I have been around the block, I simply did not blindy believe the Bible to be true. I am not saying that you think that either.

I read the Bible for my self, I searched and asked questions, I even looked into the evidence and feel the evidence is very over whelming.

I do believe their is a good chance you will never believe, no matter what is told you, sadly if I am correct, you will stand before the God you claim does not exist, then you admit He is real and then get tossed into the lake of fire where for all of etirnty you will be tormented by the fact you heard the truth and make excuses as to why it was not real,

and you will be sorrowful because you will have seen God on the throne in all his glory and then know He is real and know by your choice you rejected Him and then get tossed into the lake that burns with fire. Rick b