Thursday, August 16, 2007

When will we ever learn?

I started today with the thought that maybe I can begin to understand why so many people are led to follow religious rigor in order to secure the dubious promise of “afterlife”. How sad to squander the only life of which we can be sure to secure what exists only in the minds of the superstitious.
I stumbled on this posting today and it states what I feel and could not express. Green Oasis
Religion is a vapor of darkness which blinds our eyes and binds us down to the foolish traditions of our ancestors. It is a collection of the ideas of fallible men mingled with ancient scripture. It is a collection of half-truths and obfuscated wisdom which has outlived the peak of its usefulness. It feels good, so we don’t question its foundations. It is often the tool of the powerful to control the powerless, to lull them into complacency. Promises of rewards in heaven keep us from acting against the injustices in the only life we know that we have. It destroys our natural propensity to think and ask questions. It causes good people to do evil things. It diverts our energy and our resources from more useful efforts. Whatever benefits we derive from religion can be replaced by less destructive methods.


I have hope.

18 comments:

rick b said...

I read over some of your newer topics, I could reply but I believe you really dont want an answer, I mean, no matter how much evidence I give, it will never be enough and you will find a way to say it really is not true.

But I decide to reply to this topic because the topic is so stupid and sad. Here is why I say this. The author you quote seems to imply we are stupid for following a God and are wasting our lives.

Here is a snipit of my life.

I was born and raised an Athiest, held no religious beliefes. Over time I was so hateful I had to see a shrink at the age of 5 years old.

As I grew up, I had the Local police over my house, then the county sherrif, then the state troopers, all because I caused trouble, Never spent a day in jail because I got away with stuff. I threatend to kill a state trooper, I had a restraining order put on my by a local pastor of the Church, for saying I was satan and was going to kill him and his family.

I learned how to make pipe bombs and blew up things, I was kicked out of two high schools and dropped out of a third one. I lived on the streets of Maine, Texas and Chicago. I broke into houses and did drugs, slept around with as many women as I could.

I tried to kill two people, I have police records to prove all this, I have razor blade scars and ciggerate burns on my arms from self cutting and burning. So this is not nearly all. My wife now of 13 years and my brother, mom, and dad, seen all the evils I did.

Now after my choice to read the Bible and follow Christ I am a changed man, Yes I still struggle with anger here and their and other minor issues, but not even close to what I was.

So if I followed the advive and listend to your author, I would drop religion and my beliefes and go back to the way I was.

If I never knew Jesus I can say with 100 percent certinty I would have killed someone, I lost it on a guy at work, I was very close to sending him to the hospital, I was tired of his actions, and blew up on him, I told him in no uncertain terms leave me alone or I will send him to the hospital.

He went to another co-worker who then told me, if anyone hurts him, he will hurt them, So I told him I was not scared and he needs to mind his own bussiness lest he gets hurt also. He wised up with other co-workers telling him to stay out of it.

I swear, if it were not for the Love of Christ holding me back, I would have gone to jail, lost my Job and sent that guy to the hospital. Yes it might seem like the Love of Christ did not restrain me, but it did, I only yelled loudly at him verses beating him.

Now if I follow Christ and Love others, then I wont try and kill them, or break into their houses, or put a strain on the city by going to Jail and using up tax payers money. I wont cheat on my wife and use others, So how is this a bad thing? But like I said, if I follow the advice your quoted author gives, I will. Rick b

Interested said...

Rick I am very glad that you found what you needed to get you onto the straight and narrow. I am in education and have been for a long time so I have seen many who have stories like yours...many of them did not come out well, as you have.
I can tell you the story of one young man whom I will call Manny.

His father was a minister at a local church. His mother was the epitomy of the preacher's wife; she voluntered at school, helped with the sick and taught Sunday School every week. Manny was raised in the church, he knew about Jesus, he had been baptised.
Manny was in the 4th grade. He terrorized every child in his class and on the playground, he threatened to kill them and at one point tried to kill his parents. He was expelled from school but one day he came back. He placed a pipebomb in the boiler room of the school. The custodian spotted him leaving and called the principal who called the police and fortunatly no one was hurt. They found the bomb and disabled it. All was well. But not for Manny, he went to a home for juveniles (run by a religious organization). He only got worse. The last I heard he was serving a life sentence in Oklahoma. He is only 22 years old.

My point is this: Some people will be bad no matter what upbringing they have. According to your logic Manny should have known the love of Jesus and had the tools to grow up proper but something happened.

Rick I am truly happy for you; that you were able to take a different route. But I don't think religion gets all the credit. You became a better person. If your faith played a part then so be it, but you did it. YOU!

rick b said...

Interested, Your story was nice, but my point is people cannot simply blame religion for all problems. As far as I am concerned if you blame religion then your simply not taking responibalty for your actions.

Is that to say that religion free and clear on every count? no. But I read the stories of all the serial killers I follow forenics and things, Almost every serial killer had nothing ever to do with religion.

They simply were evil and rotten. That was my point. Rick b

Interested said...

Rick you said...but my point is people cannot simply blame religion for all problems..I don't. Quite the contrary, I think there are many good and kind people among the religious. That said as a whole religion tends to divide people. Muslim against Jew, Catholic against Protestant, Mormon against Evangelicals and more.

But beyond that the most important point I wish to make is that religion does not have a monopoly on morality and values. Many, who count themselves among atheist and agnostic are fine people, if fact most are. We are normal, moral people who live our lives fully without superstition. In contrast to what many think about us we do not worship satan. We don't believe in satan any more than god.

rick b said...

Interested You were saying that many Athiests are really kind nice people, your topic inpmy's people who are religous or follow religion cause these problems.

Go onto the Mormon coffee blog and watch the 3 you tube videos under the title of (Purchasing Documents to Protect the Image of the Mormon Church)

Pay close attention to the 3rd one, they say the guy who did all of this was an Athiest who was mad at the LDS church, An athiest lied and decived people then killed 2 people and tried to kill a third person. Wow so much for the Athiest are loving moral people were as the religous nuts are the trouble makers. Rick b

Interested said...

Come on Rick. I did not say that ALL atheist are good people, I didn't say ALL believers are bad. In fact I said good and bad exist in all groups. I also said and stand by the fact that religion does not have a monopoly on morality and values. You seem to think that if I do not believe in god then I do not have morals. Yes, I do. Am I perfect? Are you? Is anyone you know? However, we live by a code of ethics which guides us to be morally acceptable, upstanding citizens of this world.

I haven't watched the video but I presume you are talking about Mark Hofmann. I believe he was raised in the mormon church. I'll look into it but I have not heard that he was an atheist.

rick b said...

I believe people who do not know God can have morals, I never said they don't. I am simply saying as you just did, good and bad come in all groups, but your topic seems to imply that those people who have any sort of religion or foundation of a God are causing trouble or are behind the ides of wars and such, and it implys that these people cannot or do not think for them selves. Rick b

rick b said...

I your topic you say,

How sad to squander the only life of which we can be sure to secure what exists only in the minds of the superstitious.


You feel we are squandering our lives, I feel the same about you, but yet why do you care if we are, like I said before, I care if you are because it will result in eternal destruction. But for me, if I am wrong I lost nothing.


Then I keep point out how you feel religion is to blame, by default this implys you feel Athiest do not do the same, anyway you said:


I stumbled on this posting today and it states what I feel and could not express. Green Oasis

Religion is a vapor of darkness which blinds our eyes and binds us down to the foolish traditions of our ancestors. It is a collection of the ideas of fallible men mingled with ancient scripture. and obfuscated wisdom which has outlived the peak of its usefulness. It feels good, so we don’t question its foundations. It is often the tool of the powerful to control the powerless, to lull them into complacency. Promises of rewards in heaven keep us from acting against the injustices in the only life we know that we have. It destroys our natural propensity to think and ask questions. It causes good people to do evil things. It diverts our energy and our resources from more useful efforts. Whatever benefits we derive from religion can be replaced by less destructive methods.


I wont bother breaking it all down, but it says, We dont think, I thought and searched before believing the Bible, I see so much evidence only a fool would ignore it.

It says It diverts our energy and our resources from more useful efforts.

Many christians and religous groups give money to open Hospitals or help the poor and down trodden, How is this not a useful effort?

It says It is a collection of half-truths

You know as well as I do, many non-religous people use half truths, plus I dont believe the Bible is half truths, I see it as all truth, but I showed you evidence and you reject it, so yes to people who blow it off without really caring to look into it, no matter what is said will ever be enough. Rick b

Interested said...

Rick, I am sure that you are aware of the fact that some religious people do not think. The mormons for instance. They believe that the prophet does the thinking for them. They are not the only ones. Heaven's Gate, Jim Jones, David Koresh all VERY religious people. Now I know your next statement will be; but they did not know the real jesus. Perhaps, but they thought they did just as strongly as you do.

I am sure that you have researched much in defense of your belief but you are willing to have faith (Faith is based upon the interpretation of the intangible (feelings, emotions, etc.) instead of the physically tangible and is primarily associated with religion in modern times.) Wikipedia

I look for tangible evidence and I am open to see more. I do hope someday that someone will produce tangible evidence for god.

rick b said...

Interested said I look for tangible evidence and I am open to see more. I do hope someday that someone will produce tangible evidence for god.

Creation is not enough? The Bible is 66 different books written by 40 different authors or 1,000s of years that is not enough? The fact that Isreal is again a nation after almost 2,000 years is not enough? The Bible has over 1,800 prophecies most have been fufilled to the letter, 300 alone about Jesus, that is not enough?

What exactly will do it for you. In the Bible we read Jesus (God) walked among people and healed them and did many miracles even raised people from the dead, that did not convince many people, even the religious leaders of the day wanted one guy killed after Jesus raised him from the dead.

Sad that Jesus raises a guy from the dead, and instead of saying, wow, he really must be God, the guy was dead for 4 days, they say, lets kill that guy lest people follow Jesus. Rick b

Interested said...

At this time I don't know what will convince me. But if I see it I will know.

rick b said...

Interested said...

At this time I don't know what will convince me. But if I see it I will know.


Read Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Many good Bible Scholars feel these chapter talk about Nucler war. If that is the case and remember, the Prophets used their words to describe things they knew nothing about, so they could not or did not use the words Nucler.

But if that is the case then How could Prophets over 4,000 years ago speak about that? Then when it speaks about Gog and Magog, names change but again the Scholars feel it is modern Russia and China.

If, And I believe it will happen soon, Russia and China march against Isreal, our use nukes on them, then that should make you sit up and think. Otherwise you might believe to late as I keep saying. Rick b

Interested said...

Rick
Using the bible to convince me will not work. There must be corroboration from another source. No I don't think you are stupid, as you stated in your original comment, but I do think you are following a line of nievity. YOU believe because you want to believe. You make connections between bible "prophecy" and actual events and places because you want it to be true. I need more evidence, from more than one source.

rick b said...

Why is it when it comes to the Bible people reject it, they say it is one book written by man. In reality it is 66 different books written over 1000's of years by 40 authors. Then you except history as fact from dead people you never met. You believe people when they talk about who was the first president of the united states for example.

Other things down through history are believed by the masses because they claim to have evidence. The same applies to the Bible. Rick b

Guitanguran said...

Well then, what kind of evidence would be sufficient?

tina said...

Why do we need evidence anyway? I could care less if people believe in a god. I'm just not one to believe in superstitions. You guys keep going back and forth back and forth. I think I read every post and every comment. It really got old after awhile. I don't know how you do it, Interested. If you don't believe now, why would you hope someone can prove you wrong? Seriously, I'm just asking. Please keep your rationale. :)

Psyche said...

Good post.

Interested said...

Let me say this about that...Tina when I said I hoped someone would prove the existence of god I was speaking only in the sense of scientific discovery. As a rational person I like to keep my mind open to possibility.

Like I said Gitanguran, I don't know but so far it eludes me.

Thanks Psyche.