Wednesday, August 8, 2007

Proof of God's Existence

Whenever I out myself as an atheist I am often asked if I have read the bible. It seems a strange question. Since I do not believe in any god why would I read a book that protends to prove the existence? However, I have read the bible and continue to do so; I just don't take it as anything divine or inspired by a god. As history it is only minimally reliable.

Many times believers will retort with "I know from personal experience and prayer that God exists."

This is a statement based on a feeling. Mormons call it a "burning in the bosom" . I found this website that offers information about the atheistic argument.

If this were a court of law the prosecutor (believer) must prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt. The defendent cannot prove he did not do the crime. One cannot prove a negative. The best the defense can do is create a reasonable doubt. In my case, I have much more than a reasonable doubt.


rick b said...

You asked why people ask if you read the Bible, I think people ask you because, how can you say I dont believe in a book you never read, Understand?

Now just because you do not believe the Bible and feel you have tons of solid evidence to say it is not real, I hate to tell you, but creation alone shows God is real, then if when you die, you find God does exist and he throws you into the lake of fire for both rejecting him and then fighting against him, by having a blog trying to prove he does not exist, you will only have your self to blame.

I find it funny, you dont believe God exists, but yet you have a blog telling people that a God that you deny is not real and you provide links and books to read trying to show a God that you dont believe in really does not exist. That would be like me going out of my way to prove Santa clause does not exist.

We both know he is not real, yet people get mad that you tell their kids he is not real, you lie to your kids telling them he is real, then they grow up and find out he really did not exist, yet you fight again a God that you dont believe, trying to prove he is not real? Why?

I dont know how to make Hot links, but cut and paste this link and check it out,

For a God you dont believe in and a Bible you think is false their are about 1,800 prophecys speaking about God and Jesus, and most are or have been fuffiled with solid evidence to prove it. Rick b

Interested said...

Rick I am not trying to prove anything, remember? I said one cannot prove a negative. In other words it can never be proved that god does NOT exist, only that he does.

At this time I have not seen that proof.

rick b said...


This book that we call the Bible actually consists of 66 different books that were assembled over the better part of 2,000 years. They were penned by more than 40 writers, most of whom did not even know each other. Yet as we examine these 66 books, we discover that we have in our possession an integrated message system in which every detail is anticipated by deliberate, skillful design. This does not simply mean that there's a theme of the Old Testament that is fulfilled in the New Testament. Far greater than that, we discover that every detail, every number, every place name, even the structure hidden beneath the text evidences a master plan and master design that goes vastly beyond the knowledge of any of its contributors. It anticipates events, places, and historic episodes that the authors had no way of knowing thousands of years in advance.

This master plan is the fingerprint of the real Author, God Himself, and it demonstrates that the origin of these 66 books came from outside our time domain. This is what we are dealing with when we talk about prophecy. Prophecy is not just a curiosity. It is a demonstration that God is real, that He cares, and that He has chosen to reveal to us in advance what He is all about, what His plan is for the world, and what His plan is for you and me personally - and it's all in the Bible in one integrated package.

This integrated package consists of two parts: the Old and New Testaments. The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed; the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed. The Old Testament closes with unfulfilled yearnings, unfulfilled prophecies and incomplete promises. The New Testament completes the Old Testament and ties it all together.

Further, Jesus gave us a guiding principle with regard to scripture that is often overlooked. Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5: 17-18). That phrase refers to a "jot," the smallest Hebrew letter about the size of an apostrophe, and a "tittle," the little decorative hook or serif on some Hebrew letters. So Jesus was saying that not the smallest letter or even the smallest part of a letter shall pass away until all is fulfilled. The Messiah Himself underscores that we are to take the Word of God very seriously.

By the reckoning of some, the Scriptures include 8,362 verses containing 1,817 predictions concerning more than 700 different matters. Of these, there are more than 300 prophecies dealing with the coming Messiah. The odds of one person fulfilling just eight of those prophecies is equivalent to covering the state of Texas with silver dollars two feet deep, marking just one of the silver dollars, mixing them up in such a way that the marked coin could be anywhere, and then reaching back in at random and drawing out that one marked silver dollar. Obviously, that would be pretty unlikely! Even more astonishing is the fact that Jesus fulfilled, not just eight, but all of the hundreds of prophecies about the Messiah.

Throughout the Bible we find the fingerprints of a supernatural message system. Numerous design features in the Biblical text defy coincidence and demonstrate that the Bible is an integrated message system. Because God exists outside our space-time domain, He is able to see, in effect, the beginning and the end of our time domain simultaneously. Consequently, the Bible authenticates that its message is of extra-dimensional origin through predictive prophecy.

Their is more than enough proof, you simply have to choose to reject it all by saying, no matter what you show me it is not good enough. Rick b

Interested said...

Your comment is about prophecy not the existence of god.

If you give the definition of a word and use the word to define the word, the definition is weak and inconclusive at best and a failure at worst. Using the bible to "prove" the existence of the object of the bible is the same.

rick b said...

Prophecy proves God is real, but like I said for a person that really does not want the truth, no matter what I say or show you will matter, you will have an excuse to not believe no matter what.

I saw a comic a long time ago, it was 3 non-believers standing before God, he said to them, I thought I told you to report to the lake of fire, they said we do not believe in you.

No matter how much you claim, any amount of evidence is not enough, once your dying and slipping into hell, then you will be tormented for all of eterinty knowing people showed you evidence of God and you choose to reject it.

My speaking of Hell is not to be mean to you, it is a matter of, Jesus spoke more about hell and the torment that awaits than he did about heaven.

The more your told by anyone the more accountable you will be. Rick b

Interested said...

Thank you for your concern but somehow I am really not worried. I cannot imagine a god who would create something as wonderous as a human, give him free will to choose his life then send him to burn in a hell so horrible one can only shutter at the thought. I am much more comfortable with my non-belief.

Guitanguran said...

"I cannot imagine a god who would create something as wonderous as a human, give him free will to choose his life then send him to burn in a hell so horrible one can only shutter at the thought."

Me either.

rick b said...

Guitanguran said...

"I cannot imagine a god who would create something as wonderous as a human, give him free will to choose his life then send him to burn in a hell so horrible one can only shutter at the thought."

Me either.

Seems Guitanguran does not know what the Bible teaches either if he feels hell is not real or people will not end up in it. Rick b

Guitanguran said...

More to the point:

"...give him free will to choose his life then send him to burn in a hell..."

Choosing to reject Jesus is no doubt our way of buying a ticket to the Hell express. Our Lord as Conductor simply punches the ticket. What I was getting at is, given we have a way out in our freedom to choose, God is NOT pre-emptively sending anyone anywhere that doesn't want to go. Its "all who will", correct?

rick b said...

I would agree, I thought the way you worded the last reply you were denying hell. Sorry about that, Rick b

Guitanguran said...

That's what I get for trying to be clever.

rick b said...

Speaking more about hell, Interested this info is for you.


Nobody likes to talk about Hell. It's an uncomfortable subject; the prospect of unsaved people tormented in outer darkness forever. It's much more pleasant to imagine that Hell is simply a metaphor, or that unsaved souls simply cease to exist after death.

According to the Barna Research Institute, just over 80 percent of Americans believe in some form of afterlife, and 71 percent believed in Hell. However, how those 71 percent defined "Hell" varied from person to person. According to Barna, only one-third of Americans believe that Hell is an actual place of punishment:

"While there is no dominant view of Hell, two particular perspectives are popular. Four out of ten adults believe that Hell is "a state of eternal separation from God’s presence" (39%) and one-third (32%) says it is "an actual place of torment and suffering where people’s souls go after death." A third perspective that one in eight adults believe is that "Hell is just a symbol of an unknown bad outcome after death" (13%)."

What does the Bible say about Hell? The Bible, however, describes a place of punishment for those who die in their sins. Three different words are translated "Hell" in the King James:

Sheol - the grave, the place of the dead: (Num 16:33; Job 24:19; Ps 9:17; 31:17). Sheol is described as deep (Job 11:8), dark (Job 10:21,22), with bars (Job 17:16). The dead "go down" to it (Num 16:30,33; Eze 31:15,16,17).

Hades - the home of disembodied spirits. Hades refers to the abode of the unsaved dead prior to the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15). It is a prison (1 Pet 3:19) with gates and bars and locks (Matt 16:18 Rev 1:18) and it is downward (Matt 11:23 Luke 10:15).

Gehenna - the trash heap outside Jerusalem in the time of Christ: Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire, always kept burning. It thus, in process of time, became the idiom of the place of everlasting destruction. Jesus uses it in this sense 11 times (Matt 5:22,29,30; 10:28 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5).

The Rich Man and Lazarus:

The most poignant description of Hell is Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), in which the wicked rich man ended up in torment in the flames of Hades, while Lazarus was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich man was quite conscious of his predicament and longed for just a drop of water to soothe his tongue, "for I am tormented in this flame." Jesus frames this as a true story and not as a parable.

Why Would God Create Hell?

Hell was not created for humans, but for Satan and his angels (Matt 25:41). God gave His Son to die for mankind so that all who believe in him can have eternal life (John 3:16), and He does not want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9). But, those who reject the sacrifice of the Lamb of God will be subject to the punishment their sins deserve (Rev. 21:8). God is merciful and patient and full of love, but He is also perfectly holy and perfectly just, and nothing that defiles will be allowed into Heaven (Rev. 21:27).

While many Christians will say, "Yes, I believe in Hell," we often do not act like it. If we truly recognized that the unsaved people in our lives might die tomorrow and end up in eternal punishment, we might appreciate the urgency of telling them about the good news of the Gospel. Hell is not a scare tactic. It is a real danger that every one of us faces. The great gift of our loving God is freedom from that punishment, and eternity with Him in Paradise.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: - 1 Peter 3:15

isaiah said...

hi this is isaiah
god is real
if cause is real
god is real
i no god is real because
iv gone in woods and ive seen
shells in woods and i ask
myself y is there shells in
the flood
u know Noahs ark.
I know a man that teaches the
he had lung problems
and his lungs were worked by michins and he went into church and prayed and when he went out
he breathed weird so he took off the machine and he could breath fine.
isaiah warwick

BEAST said...

When faced with the question of what atheists need to justify god's existence, my standard quip is to ask God to buy me a round of beer in my favorite pub, or recommend God's daughter (if he has one!) to me, provided, of course, if she is a smashing hot chick!


Anonymous said...

I just thought I'd say that I found rick b's comments extremely moving, and nearly convincing. I've long been an agnostic and it almost troubles me how convincing a few words can be. On the other hand, if you look at scientific explanations, the science and logic of it can be mind-numbing. It's almost painful how much easier it would be to go with the idea that has an appearance of clarity. Today, I almost chose God.

Unfortunately, if God would entrap me - give me great reason to not believe, and then when my judgment came to pass cast me upon some eternal blaze for taking the bait that he had set - I would rather endure an eternity of pain than have worshiped such a God in life.

-Martin Lawless

Larro said...

Bullshit! Hell IS a scare tactic!

The notion of "sin" means that somebody has fallen from the graces of god; separated or cut off from god. Or otherwise denied passage through the pearly gates. Is not the commission of sin the prerequisite for entrance to hell?

The idea of a hell only exists in life and in the mind.

The absolute real guiding hand of moral values lies not in a god but rather in society. In a philosophical AND a literal sense. This is why we have material laws that do not always abide by whatever holy scripture dictates otherwise for certain legitimate punishments dished out by the courts. We no longer stone sinful adulterers to death NOT because God has revealed some divine authority that contradicts otherwise unchanging, "inerrant" biblical scripture!
We have laws of society that have changed through the centuries because we have discovered that the bible (and almost all other religious text) is a lie and is incompatible with the human condition.

One day...

Interested said...

Scare tactics...yes they are. And those who suffer the most are the children. I see and hear them daily, speaking of hell as if it were a real place. What a travesty to teach our children such garbage.