Thursday, October 22, 2009

The Big Bang

Okay we need a new thread. I have said before that I cannot argue the big bang theory. I don't claim to believe it, but I also don't disbelieve it. I am waiting to see what else is discovered and what new "proofs" become available. I really do not spend a lot of time thinking about how humanity or the universe came into existence. I am certain that I do not believe in a creator beyond that I cannot say any more about it.

How did I come to this place? I asked questions; hard questions. Why can't I see god, why does he let kids get sick and die, why does he allow bad things to happen? Where is he and why is he hiding? Why is the bible so vulgar and cruel if it is the word of god?

I asked my parents, my ministers anyone who would listen. But I soon realized that no one had the answers to my questions. I realized that I would have to find out for myself. So I began to read...everything. I started with the bible and book about how to read the bible, which I received from my minister. The more I read the bible the more disturbed I became. I was only 12 years old. I needed guidance so I went to one of my teachers for help. She could not answer my questions either.

So I went to the library. It was a small library, only one room and the librarian showed me to the 200's where the books on religion are shelved. I finally knew where to find the answers but they were not there.

I came to my disbelief in gods and all things supernatural by reading and studying many materials, including the bible, the book of Mormon, Will and Ariel Durant's History of Civilization, the work of Joseph Campbell and many others.

It was not a pivotal moment it was a slow process and it took years. I continued to go to church until 1991 when I woke one morning knowing that I would never again doubt myself or depend on others for my answers. I made up my own mind.


Jeff said...

Asking the 'hard questions' is good. Unfortunately, too many Christians have the attitude that "God said it; I believe it; and that's good enough for me." That might be fine for them, but it does little good for those who don't accept the authority of the Bible. Some of the best Christian apologists are those who started out as Atheists or Agnostics, and sought to either prove the Bible wrong, or else sought to find out what the real truth was. For example, Josh McDowell used his skills in law to painstakingly critique, examine and research the Bible. Lee Strobel used his skills as a newspaper reporter to investigate the Bible to see if it really stood up to scrutiny, and to find out what the real facts were. Both men were Atheists. "Betrayed!" is a book by Stan Telchin, a Jew who sought to disprove the Bible so that he could convince his daughter, who had become a Christian, to give up her "nonsense" about accepting Christ Jesus as the Messiah. All of these individuals asked the 'hard questions.' And, all of these men became born-again Christians as a result. So, it's a good thing to challenge beliefs, and not just to accept them blindly. Even the Bible says that we should know why we believe what we believe, and be able to give a reason for it: "...Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." (1 Peter 3:15)

rick b said...

I have a hard time believing you on some points, like you really looked into the facts or you really look into both sides.

I say this because, you seem to get upset or were bothered by the fact you asked questions but got no answers. Yet I have asked questions to you and for a while got no answers. Then when I pushed you I got some.

Some questions are still not answered, so this tells me that you either cannot answer them, or you really dont care.

Then Some questions you addressed on the bible, like why would God seem so cruel, or why would he allow kids to get sick and die, or others, I have addressed, used the Bible to point the answers out and answered your questions.

So you found someone, years later, but you found someone who can and did answer your questions, yet you really seem like you could care less. You dont like the answers, so you just simply dismiss the answers. But I will address them all again because even if you do not care, their are lurkers who do. Rick b

Interested said...

Rick, that is the problem. I do not hold the bible to authority, therefore you answers are invalid. I have tried to explain that before but you insist that the proof in in the bible. I don't buy it.

And if I have not answered your questions it is perhaps because I cannot or you have not accepted my answer.

rick b said...

Interested said Rick, that is the problem. I do not hold the bible to authority, therefore you answers are invalid. I have tried to explain that before but you insist that the proof in in the bible. I don't buy it.

That answer reveals the truth right their, you never wanted to hear the truth, so you were happy when people could not answer your questions, your were happy because you never really wanted to know. Know you have someone who can answer them, and you dont want to hear them.

That speaks volumes. That also tells me you only search out one side, not both sides. It also tells me you want to believe what you want to believe and really do have blind faith and an agenda.

You have blind faith because you have ZERO evidence for what you believe, yet you have hope that someday Science will prove what you believe, but as of yet has been unable to, so you have blind faith.

Then you have an agenda. The agenda is, Teach people one side, again you said, I dont care what you believe as long as it does not interfere with my life, yet your belief interfere with my life, so you do have an agenda.

Then you said And if I have not answered your questions it is perhaps because I cannot or you have not accepted my answer.

Interested, you were honest in some questions by saying I dont know, as I said, I can live with that, then a question or two you did try answering, But their were some I have asked over and over, I suspect it is a matter of, you dont want the answer because it will expose your true heart.

If I ask enough questions and your honest in your reply, it will expose your true belief and your heart. Example, I dont buy your view of the Bible, Thats shows you really never did want to hear the truth.

If you were honest you would have worded it like, Tell me what the Bible says on these matters....

I have asked the questions and never received answers.

Then I answer them for you, and if you were really open to hearing both sides you would say, I dont agree with your answers and here's why. Then we debate, but not you, you reject the answers before their even given, that shows your lying when you say people need to look at both sides.

Like Jeff said, great hard core Atheists set out to prove the Bible wrong, looked at both sides and did the research and came to the truth. Not you, you reject it before even looking. Rick b

Jeff said...

Just stopping by and reading the comments.

Nicole said...


The Bible is 66 books written by 40 different authors. The authors were of different employ and education. From royalty, physician, government, and fisherman. It was written in three different languages on three different continents. The writings spanned over 1500 years. When you read and study it within its own contexts it all talks about basically the same thing: the redemptive plan of God. When I learned of that, I found it amazing! What say you?

Interested said...

You may be right in your statement but I'm not sure of your point. My problem with the bible is in stating that it is divinely inspired. I don't buy that.

rick b said...

Just because you do not believe the Bible is Divine does not make it false.

I could say that Dawkins is a stupid moron, does that make it so? Just because you believe something is true or false does not make it so, simply because you want to believe or deny it.

As I said, their is over whelming evidence to prove the bible true, but no evidence for the Big bang or life from non life. Even in evolution the evidence is lacking big time.

I dont know why you reject evidence and yet hold to a view with no evidence, then in turn tell us Christians were basically abusing our children for raising them to believe what we believe, when you teach your kids or even other kids a believe with zero evidence.

Then you only teach one side and basically not allow people to think for themselves by seeing both sides, thats abuse.

Then you lie to people by telling them they need to look into both sides, but then you do not, and you fight in court to not allow both sides. That make you a hypocrite and makes me wonder, if their is no evidence for the Bible, what are you afraid of?

If the bible is false then allow people to decide that for themselves. Rick b

Anonymous said...

"but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools."

Romans 1:22b-23.


Interested said...

I am so glad I am not a christian! You guys are so mean! You do nothing but say horrible things to me. Without any other reason, I would reject christianity because you are so cruel and ugly. Sorry but it needed to be said.

OBTW..Jeff was at least civil.

rick b said...

Interested said I am so glad I am not a christian! You guys are so mean! You do nothing but say horrible things to me. Without any other reason, I would reject christianity because you are so cruel and ugly. Sorry but it needed to be said.

I hate to tell you, but you cannot stand before God after death and say to Him, I reject you because people that claim to follow you spoke the truth to me and I did not like it, It simply does not work that way.

Then the verse posted by Anon, from Romans is true, you do openly reject the truth and do not want to hear both sides, So how is that cruel and ugly?

I could also say to you, I'm so glad I'm not an atheist, since you guys are so cruel and ugly.

You guys have never that I am aware of built a hospital to help the hurting, or started a school to help people out, these things come from the religious not the atheists.

You guys are so cruel because you teach kids we came from the Goo to the zoo to you, yet you say teach people to think for themselves, but then only teach one side, fight in court to suppress the Christian and religious voice.

Start a blog or website called the blasphemy project and talk about a God you dont believe in, but yet talk about how hateful and spew forth vile towards Him, Yea Interested, You Atheists really are full of love and compassion while we believers are so cruel and Vile.

Do you really think before you speak? Sorry, but it just had to be said. Rick b

Nicole said...

First off, seriously, that was mean Anon. I think you are a coward. At least post your name or something. And Anon when you take a text out of context, you make it a pretext. You can make it mean what ever you want it to.

Secondly, INT, My statement is my point. Like it or not, Rick is right. The Bible is divinely inspired. What are the statistics of all that stuff panning out and being true?

I had someone point out to me that the men on Richard Nixon's staff were very intelligent men. (I guess I wouldn't know personally, because I was an infant when he was president.) They couldn't keep the secret of perpetrating Watergate for more than a week.

How is it possible that the Bible has stood the test of time?

rick b said...

I gotta say, your truly something else.
You say were mean and hateful, Well I guess here we go again, I'm calling you out on this. their is really only 3 people posting here, Me (Rick), Jeff and Nicole. Anon posted Once, You cannot make a case that we are mean because One person said one thing. I have 3 kids they have said mean things in their life, I cannot accuse all of my kids of being cruel and mean because one child says one mean thing, one time.

Now I have said before, I read every single post, Jeff has barley said a word, He posted a few links, Nicole has barely been here, she has not said anything cruel or mean. Either post what was cruel and mean from Jeff and Nicole, or apologize to them.

If you want to accuse me of being cruel and mean for speaking the truth, then lets pull back the wool from your eyes and compare what I have said to what atheists have said and teach, but before I do that, I know you will show your hypocritical side by saying to me, I am not these other atheists, if they say something mean and cruel, or do something mean and cruel thats on them, I am not doing it. Then I would reply, Jeff and Nicole have not said anything mean or cruel to you, but you accuse them of these things based upon what I have said, so either it works that way with you, or it does not work that way with us, You choose.

Now Tell me what I have said that is mean and cruel, lets review things I have said. I said people who deny or reject Jesus will go to hell. Thats not mean and cruel, It's a very loving thing to do to warn you of the judgment to come, plus Jesus said it, I am only saying what he said.

I notice you avoid questions, so I point this out, how is that mean and cruel? You thought I dodged a question, so you asked me about it, So you are doing what I am doing, so either your Mean and cruel, or I am not.

Remember Beast? That guy was mean and cruel. Do you know what videos and photos are know as? "Evidence", Like me, you saw the movie, No intelligence required. The Atheists were vary honest about denying Jobs and funding to atheists who convert to Christianity. Explain how deny jobs and funding is a loving non cruel thing to do. If all it is, is a matter of not agreeing then what are they scared of?

Somehow I dont see how I am being mean and cruel, yet you accused Christians of Child abuse because we teach our kids what we believe. Yea, and were mean and cruel, do you really think before you speak. I suspect you think I am mean and cruel because I call you out, if you are being hypocritical I point out how and why, I dont just say it and leave people to wonder why. If you avoid questions, I call you out. I think you dont like being exposed. I might not have a High school diploma and I might have bad grammar and spelling But I'm not stupid, I grew up living on the streets and am very street smart and have a brain and use it. I look at both sides and call people out when needed.

I suspect the brand of Christianity your used to seeing is, Christians allowing people to walk all over them, and they do not stand up for themselves or they do not confront false teaching or error. Not me, I will confront error and call people out. I'm the kinda guy who will stand up to the Scientists and teachers and take them and their false teachings on. Rick b

Shelli said...

Have I been mean and cruel to you? I've posted a few times. You cannot say all Christians are mean and cruel. You wouldn't want anyone else to lump you in with all the other atheists. Seriously, God is good, all the time. He doesn't need people to believe in Him, but we were created to worship Him and have a relationship with Him. He loves you. There is no reason for you to blame God for what you believe He has or has not done to/for you. He is ready to accept you with open arms. If you don't accept God's revealed word, why don't you research, scrutinize, and critique the Bible with an open mind? McDowell and Stroebel did it, and found God's word is true. I give you a challenge. Read the gospel of John, and just ask God to reveal Himself to you. If you have an open mind about it, He will reveal Himself to you. There is no doubt. But if you seriously refuse, then it is on you. The burden of proof lies on you, since God has no need to prove Himself. Think about it.

Interested said...

I am totally backed off! Sorry for accusing you of being mean. It fest mean when you said I am going to burn in hell. I know you think that is your responsibility to tell me that but...enough already! It has no impact on me and it does not add to the discussion.

"Just because you believe something is true or false does not make it so, simply because you want to believe or deny it."

One of you made the above statement and I agree. Just because you want the bible to be divine does not make it so.

You can only believe what you want to believe based on your own criteria for proof....and so can I.

Now, this is my blog and I welcome all who have someting to add to the topic but I will no longer tolerate preaching. I am a non believer, atheist, anti-theist and many other things. Please respect me and my right to be who I am.

So stay on topic and address questions without preaching or be deleted.

rick b said...

Interested, You said stay on topic, I do, but you need to remember, I use the Bible to answer your questions with. Then you said we believe what we want to believe.

Thats not true, We as I have said before, have tons of evidence to prove what we believe. If you see the evidence and reject it, thats your choice, But the thing is, as I keep saying, you have zero evidence for what you teach, we have evidence for what we believe.

I can give you plenty of evidence for the bible, but the thing is, you cannot speak against the evidence, so all you can do is say you dont agree but you cannot say why.

The difference between me and you is, I answer questions, all questions, you do not or cannot. I can provide evidence, you cannot.

Secular history and scientists and atheists have read OT accounts that were written in such great detail that they have to go and say, it was written after the fact. That alone is evidence.

The Bible has over 1,800 prophecy's, their are less than 500 to be fulfilled, and the ones that were, were fulfilled in such great detail, it blows the minds of non-believers to the point that they need to say, they were fulfilled after the fact.

all this is awesome evidence that atheists only wish they had to prove what they believe.

then when you said stick to the topic, remember, in each topic questions will arise, like how did you come to your conclusion, or why do you believe this, or what evidence do you have. This opens each topic to new and more questions.

Since you have made topics out of a few things I have said or asked, here is a thought for a new topic for you. Why is it, you have said before, you dont care what we believe as long as it does not interfere with your life, but it's ok to have your belief interfere with what I believe.

Example, I teach Creation, or the Bible is true, But Atheists fight it in court and only want their side taught, not both sides, so atheists, like you for example, claim I am abusing my child(ern) for teaching them creation, but yet you only want one side your side taught. Why is that? How in your words is that being open minded and fair? In my opinion it is being closed minded and very unfair, But then why let truth and facts get in the way of what you want to believe.

As they say, don't confuse me with the facts. Rick b

Jeff said...

Even though I'm new here, I just want to say that I feel for Interested. From reading these comments, it looks like everyone is ganging up on her. She says, "Please respect me and my right to be who I am," and I think that is a fair request.

Anonymous' comment was made without compassion.

Nicole and Shelli, from what I've read here, seem nice.

I believe Rick has a good heart, and means well, but just seems to come on strong and tenacious like a bulldog. Then again, Rick, in his comments here, at least, has been more civil than I have been at times in the past, in various situations.

To be fair, I have been in religious discussion groups that have been incredibly vicious and nasty, and I'm glad to see that this discussion is nothing like that. Still, it seems like it is everyone vs. Interested, and I can see why she is turned off after being ganged up on.

No one can be forced to be a Christian. Yes, people can be forced to become Catholic or whatever on the outside, but no one can force you to believe something in your heart, and only the Holy Spirit can change a person's heart.

I have been in debates with Atheists in the past, and I have been called nasty names by Atheists. I have also met other Atheists who have been very nice, very civil and were pleasant to talk to. I have been in a debate with homosexuals who were nastier that any Atheist I have ever talked to. And, though I have talked to some Muslims who were very nice and polite, one Muslim said things to me that were so perverted, so filthy, so offensive and disgusting, that it was worse than anything any Atheist or homosexual has ever said to me. Now, I'm not saying that Atheists and homosexuals and Muslims all belong in the same group. I'm just mentioning debates I've had in the past where people have gotten nasty, and I am categorizing those people because of the topics we were discussing. With Atheists, the topic was usually Darwinian Evolution, or the existence of God. With homosexuals, the topic was homosexuality. With Muslims, the topic was Islam. But the point I'm trying to make is that all the negative things they said about me only turned me off. And I think this is similar to what Interested is saying: that the fact that everyone here is coming against her, is only turning her off. I don't believe anyone here is being nasty or cruel (with the possible exception of the comment posted by Anonymous), but I would think it would be better if we could all find some common ground as a basis, and maybe say more positive things. Maybe I'm just being naive because I'm new here, and maybe its easier for me to say these things because I have not been involved in these ongoing discussions except briefly, but I would think it would be better if we could try to be a little more humble and a little more gentle. I'm trying to learn to be more like that in my conversations (for example, I'm currently in a private conversation with a Muslim on Facebook, and I'm trying to be humble and polite, because my last conversation with a Muslim went badly), and I know I can be dogmatic.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth, and probably not everyone will agree with me. And, if I continue to have discussions with anyone here, you will eventually see that I can be quite dogmatic at times. (And, as you can also see, I am also often verbose/long-winded.) But I am making an attempt at being more gentle and considerate, while at the same time, not compromising truth. And admittedly, it is not an easy balance to reach. Obviously, none of us are perfect.

"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

Interested said...

Thanks Jeff. You have some good points. My complaint with many is their circular reasoning. It is impossible to make a point when you have someone preaching and simply going in circles. Anyway thanks for the comment. I'm working on a new post so I'll look forward to your participation.

rick b said...

Interested said Thanks Jeff. You have some good points. My complaint with many is their circular reasoning. It is impossible to make a point when you have someone preaching and simply going in circles.

If your refering to me, then I would say, How can it be that I am using Circular logic and your not? I am exactly like Jeff said, like a bull dog.

I am like that because I hate it with a passion when someone tells me I am wrong, but has zero evidence to prove it, or they say that I am guilty of Child abuse because of what I believe, but then they cannot support what they believe or answer my questions.

Then not only can they not answer my questions, but they believe that despite the lack of evidence they are still correct, and they refuse to see that I answr questions and they cannot. But yet despite that fact they are convinced they are corret. Everyone says, let be more civil, I believe I am being civil, I'm just asking for questions to be answered. And if you cannot answer them, then be honest enough to admit it, and then be honest enough to admit maybe your wrong since you have zero evidence to prove your beliefe with.

Example, you cannot go into a court of law and claim you were raped, yet you have no evidence to prove it. You have no wounds on your body, you have no blood or semon samples, you cannot tell the court who raped you, you just believe you were. That will not fly.

Then why is it ok for Athiests to demand evidence from Me about my belief all the while not being able to provide evidence for your belief? Rick b

rick b said...

Here is a thought from me, I do not feel Interested is being ganged up on, here is why.

Before you, Nichole and Shelli were here, It was Me, the only Christian. Then for Atheists, it was Interested, Beast, Larry, and Tina, if I recall correctly.

Beast and Larry who went by Laro were far from civil. Interested sided with them, or if they were all out vicious in their attacks, Interested never told them to chill out, only for me to chill.

She can handle herself. Then on Interested's home page, she wrote, I love a challenge. I crave the battle. I need the struggle

If that's true, then I think she can handle herself.

Also, She's not being ganged up on because, Shelli has only posted once, maybe twice in the last 8 months or longer if memory serves me. Then Nichole and you are here once in a great while.

I come across ruff, but it would be unfair for people to cry and say Rick is rough when the Guys these atheists follow, like Dawkins, and others are very bold, and in your face.

I'm mostly rough when it comes to having questions ignored, while telling me you have the truth, yet cannot provide a shred of evidence.

Then you and I Jeff both know, Jesus was harder in His approach with the people that either did not care about Him, or were the leaders of the day, religious or otherwise.

Yes He was loving and compassionate, But He is also a just Judge that will bring harsh judgment. I also read in the Bible, we cannot be so soft in our approach that we never get any where, we cannot be so hard that no one listens, I try and take a middle of the road approach.

I start of gentle and get harder as people reject the message. Rick b

Brent Fox said...

I'm Brent, you can learn a lot about me at FDT website and I'm just a visitor passing by, please go to the bottom of my RESOURCE page to find links for Christianity and Creation/Evolution topics. I know Rick and thought I'd check this out and post a few thoughts.

Any debate or discussion can get heated because it involves an EMOTIONAL RESPONSE from both sides.

It's emotional because it is about what we believe.

Athiest or Religious = BOTH are ultimately believed by FAITH, because you cannot prove origins by the scientific method (repeatable, demonstrateable experiments) It is more of a matter of history and taking what science has demonstrated as fact.
Little scientific evidence is actually undisputed fact ex: Gravity will always pull an object to the ground and punching someone in the nose will always move their head! That is testable and repeatable. (I hate it when people test the last one on me :D ha, ha, I make funny! )
Jesus turning water into wine is a matter of history and not science because it is outside the scope of natures mechanisms = super natural.

History and empiracle science must be in agreement ex: WWII planes landed in Greenland and were buried in a couple hundred feet of ice layers. Standard scientific methods say the layers are 100's-1000's years old, but history says they were there less than 60 years. The layers are warm/cold periods, not annual layers.

Disputable "facts" would be taking an object of evidence ex: Fossil.
There is one piece of evidence and it doesn't have any production date or cause of death stamped on it. You can look at the same evidence from 2 points of view = Old Earth or Young Earth, OEer would say it was probably XX mil Y.O. and YEer would say it could have been killed around time of Noahs flood. 2 views and 2 answers from 1 evidence. Other evidence will have to back up your view (burial by flood to form mass fossil graveyards, that is what we find)and if you look at the views of both sides you will consistently find that biblical Young Earth views are not only consistent throughout the Bible OT/NT (Jesus confirmed that Genesis was true and that He is God)they are also more consistant with scientific findings. Old Earth views are not.

As pointed out, those who follow where the evidence leads(functional science and historical evidence together)will never be able to hold on to Darwinian Evolutionary belief.

You can only hold onto a belief because you want to and evidence will never mater. It is purely a condition of pride, stubborness, and willfulness. People will justify what they WANT to believe.

An Athiest has the ability to do anything and anyone they want because there is nothingness when they die. Murder and rape are not wrong because you can make up your own rules. Christians can still sin, but are more driven to do what is good and right(based on the 10 Commandments and lifestyle standards our creator gave us.
Unfortunately, people turn away from Christ and don't believe the Bible because so many Christians are ignorant of scripture themselves and the evidence that it is realy true. That is a problem in the modern church largely because people compromised with believing Darwinian Evolution at the turn of the century. Logically that leads to "why believe anything in the Bible?".

Lot of good and accurate statements have been posted. Non Christians must honestly study the evidence presented to ever accept it. I sincerely hope people will (including Christians who don't believe the Bible is true (Genesis 1-11). Yes Interested I have also prayed for you specifically.

Nicole said...

Brent, good post. This is very emotional stuff. Speaking of that...

Psychology, the study of the mind of man, points to the uniqueness of man in creation. Since man was made in the image of God, he has capabilities far beyond any other creature. The following is a partial list of attributes that are uniquely human:

Complex emotions
Individual creativity
Moral consciousness
Appreciation of beauty
Ability to think abstractly
Capacity to love
Ability to articulate symbolic speech

No animal shares these characteristics. Man stands above the rest of creation of his abilities, attributes, and accomplishments. Man's very uniqueness is God's handiwork.

rick b said...

Remember, planet of the apes is pure fiction.

We have a problem if we evolved. Many times, two very white people marry and have kids and guess what, they give birth to a child so black, the father accuses the women of adultery.

This has been proven many times. But Human Shin is Black because of pigment under the skin that gives color to humans.

If we really did evolve, then at some point in time a women should have given birth to a monkey or Ape or some primate, but this will never happen and has never happened.

We did not evolve we were created. Women can and do give birth to children of different color, because their still human. Apes were not and are not human. Rick b