An atheist's journey to find a place in the world.
I know you might think, wow, Rick says I'm right. I say We should get rid of Religion, the problem is it will never happen. Well I guess I should not say it will never happen, it will happen after Jesus comes back. See according to the Bible, the first record case of religion was with Adam and Eve covering themselves with fig leaves.I know many Atheists do not agree with me when I say this but thats fine, I hate religion and Christianity is not a religion.Christianity is a relationship with God. If you remove Jesus from Christianity you have nothing. If you remove Joseph Smith from Mormon ism you still have Mormonism, and as a matter of fact Mormonism has changed so much that if Joseph smith were to return from the dead, He would not know what He taught.If you remove Buddha from Buddhism you still have Buddhism, say goes for Islam and all the other religion. All these various religions are simply works based and you get into heaven by doing either good works or following what the leader says.These religions are all based upon what can (I) do to better myself and what can (I) do to get into heaven.Christianity teaches nothing (I) do can get me into heaven, Nothing (I) do is good enough or never will be good enough. It is only by Grace that were are saved and it is only by what Jesus Did for us, with out Jesus we cannot be saved. Thats the difference. Religion does not save, Jesus is a person, not a religion. Rick b
C'mon Rick. First you say religion will not disappear until Jesus returns (meaning Christianity is a religion) then you say Christianity isn't a religion? And you have the nerve to tell me I'm a liar?
Noreligion, You simply do not understand what I am saying. When Jesus returns and rules for the 1000 years, He will not allow people like the cults to exist and teach false gods exist. He will banish Satan to the bottomless pit for a thousand years. This way Satan will not be around to influence people and people cannot say, Satan, or the Devil made me do it. People will not have to serve Jesus and call him Lord, because the Bible tells us after the 1000 years the Devil will be released from the Pit and will device people into thinking they can over throw God. Their will be so many people going to fight against God that the Bible tells us the people will be like the number of grains of sand. Then after the Battle, which really will not even be a battle, after God sends all of then to the lake of fire for good, He will create a new heavens and earth where God will rule and we will live with Him forever. The Bible tells us nothing thats causes evil, nothing that lies nothing of the sort will be in the new heavens and earth. So no it will not be a religion in the new heavens, it will again be a relationship us humans with Jesus in His human form. You can say you dont believe this, thats fine, I'm not saying you have to, I'm simply telling you what the Bible says and that we do not have a religion.Again, Religion is man trying to do enough good works that he can enter into heaven by the works of his hands. A relationship with God is, Us being saved by what He did, We according to the Bible are enemy's of God, But by His death He brought us peace reconciled us to Him. Rick b
Noreligion, Another thought, Read about Adam and Eve, When God created them It was 3 friends hanging out in the Garden. Adam and Eve were free to go anywhere they wanted to, then God would come Visit walk around with them and talk, No religion just friends hanging out.It was God Garden and He created the garden and earth and them, So He could tell them, do not eat from this one tree, because if you do this is what will happen. It was Adam and Eve that choose to disobey. After they disobeyed they tried to cover themselves with Fig leaves. This was Man trying to cover his sins by the works of his hands, thats religion in a nut shell. God could have simple said, well I guess your screwed, But God loving them and being a good friend killed an animal, the very first death in the creation, and He, God covered their sins. Thats a friend not religion. Then God told them right their, A way of redemption and a savior is coming to save you, again a good friend saving them, not religion. Then the Bible is a big story of redemption of mankind. Man created religion when Man said, I dont want God to save me, I can save my self. Man said, I dont like Gods plan of Redemption so I will find my own, but God say, only by HIS DEATH and by HIS BLOOD can we be saved, no other way.To me thats great, because I have studied various cults, mainly Mormonism for over 14 years, I could not even come close to living up to all the required rules we must follow to be saved, according to Jesus, the only thing I must do to be saved is Believe He died for me.Lets do the Math here, Believe Jesus died for me, or Go door to door, and stop drinking coffee, and pay my tithes to the Church, and .... fill in the blanks. In Christianity it is Jesus Period. In other religions it is Jesus and...Their is no And... with ChristiansHope this helps some. Rick b
Now Adam and Eve were Christians? Now that you brought them up, why did god create Adam and Eve imperfect enough that they can be tempted by a snake (talking animal) he put in the garden himself and then blame all mankind for his setup? Face it, the bible is as moronic as can be.
I never said Adam and Eve were Christians, You said that. They were simply humans. God is not to blame as much as you people would like that to be the case, How can God be blamed, He clearly said, DO NOT eat from this tree, if you do you will die.Mormons teach God wanted them to eat from the tree because they needed to "fall" in order to have Kids, Mormons teach God told them not to eat knowing they really would, That would be a set up. It's like this, If I say to someone, if you break into my house I will kill you, then they know what will happen if they break into my house, if that person breaks into my house and I kill them thats not my fault, they were warned, plus they should not be breaking into houses.But with Mormons, it like this, I know a person I dont like So I want them dead, I either invite them into my house and kill them, but then claim they broke into my house or I taunt them into coming into my house, then kill them, Thats a set up. So if you care to explain How God set us up and he is to blame please feel free, But just know this, I know the Bible, it's one thing if you dont agree with me, thats fine, but if your going to use the Bible to make your case you better provide quotes and be accurate about it. Rick b
What quotes do you need? Did god create satan? Did god but satan as a snake in the garden? Did god create Eve just imperfect enough that she fell for the snakes temptation? Did he create Adam just so imperfect that he would agree with Eve and disobey god? Do you read the bible or just flap your lips?
I read the Bible, God created Satan, Adam and Eve. They were created perfect and with free will. Just because you guys feel we can use free will and use it to rebel you think that means we were therefore never created perfect then thats your choice. But we used are free will to rebel. If you do not believe it thats your choice. Rick b
Rick that does not make sense. We have had this conversation before: If a creation, any creation is perfect even with free will, by definition it cannot make an imperfect choice. I think it suffices to say that you take it on faith but there is nothing reasonable or logical about your statement. Belief is not a choice when reason is invoked; belief is a result of faith.
You can have free will and chose to rebel. Rebelling is a choice. Rick b
I agree: However, a perfect creation would make the perfect choice, don't you agree? Think about it please, I think we should be able to agree on this point.
Just because they rebelled by having free will does not mean they were created imperfect. Even though you do not believe the Bible, the Bible tells us that God cannot lie and it is impossible for God to lie.If that is true, then God said, Satan was created perfect, but even though he was created perfect, he used his free will to try and overthrow God and take his place.Then as a result he deceived Adam and Eve. God told Adam and Eve do not eat of the tree, if He told them not to eat from the tree, then he gave them a choice. if they did not have free will then they would have been robots. Seems simple enough to me. Rick b
And it seems just as simple to me that a perfect person could not make an imperfect choice.
Rick if Eve was perfect, she would not have been deceived. If Adam was perfect he would not have been led against god by Eve.
God is a superior trinity. Man, made in the image of God is an inferior trinity. The superior trinity being Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the inferior trinity of man being body, soul and spirit."After His likeness". The chief governing characteristic of God is His self-determination, His will, His ability to choose and to determine His own destiny or His own mind. Man, being created in the image of God was created a self-determinant being. Being created after the image of God, God created me with a capacity to choose. I have the power of self-determination. I can choose what I want. I have that power, that capacity. I'm made in the image of God, who is a self-determinant being.Now, if God created me with a capacity of choice, it would be totally meaningless unless He gave me a choice. What value would it be for me to have the capacity to choose if there was nothing to choose? Not only giving me the capacity of choice, He also respects the choice that I make. Again, what value would it be for God to give me the freedom of choice but then not respect the choice? I say, "well I want to do this". He says bloop, "you can't do that." Then that isn't free choice. He does not respect my choice, and thus it isn't really the freedom of choice. So having given me the capacity of choice, making me in His image, He has to then offer me an alternative, give me a choice to make; but then, He has to respect that choice that I have made.Part of the intricacy of self-determination; that image of God in which man was created. That is why, when God created man and He created the garden for man to dwell in, that He put in that Garden a tree of knowledge of good and evil and said to man, "Don't eat that". Therein is the choice that man was given, because having been created with the capacity of choice, it is no value unless there is something to choose.
Noreligion, Eve can be created perfect and still be deceived. Satan lied to her and she believed him, Eve was not a mind reader, Eve was not able to look into the future, How could she know Satan lied? She could have waited and instead of eating the fruit, went and talked with Adam, or went and talked with God. But no, she choose to believe Satan.If you die, which someday you will, and you find out God is real, it will be sadly to late for you, but maybe if your lucky you can ask Him to explain how He could create a perfect being, and give them the ability to choose, and they choose to disobey. Rick b
God created man after His image and God, being self-determinate, created man also self-determinate, giving to man a free will. One of the most awesome things that you have is the power of choice. You can choose your own destiny. You can choose whether or not you want God to have a part in your life. You can choose to obey God or disobey God. You can choose to love God or hate God. You can choose to serve God or serve your own flesh. God has given to you the capacity of choice.Now it is interesting to me wherever the Christian gospel has gone, there has been a very high respect for the power of choice, freedom, the freedom to choose. And whenever there is a waning of the gospel in any area, what is the consequence? A slavery of man. The loss of freedoms. Look at those nations ruled by Communism today. How they have taken away the freedoms of choice and made them very restricted and very restrictive. And as we see in this country, more and more governmental controls we realize that with each new law there comes a confining of the freedom of choice. But always where the Christian gospel has gone, it has taken with it a respect for the freedom of choice because God gave to us the freedom of choice. And we respect it as a God-given capacity.But what value would it be to have a freedom of choice if there was nothing to choose. It would be totally meaningless that God gave to me the power to choose, but I don't have anything to choose. It's all there. It's all laid out. There is no law, there is no restriction, there is nothing; therefore, I have no choice to make, therefore my power of choice is really meaningless. So in order that the power of choice be meaningful, God had to give a choice. God had to make a restriction. In order that man's obedience to God might be meaningful, God had to give the opportunity to disobey and the choice to disobey.The power of choice is the thing that makes man something other than a robot. God could have made us all robots with no choices, every decision coming from a superior mind that is controlling every action, every decision of my whole life and my body and everything else. But God didn't want a bunch of robots, because you could never receive meaningful love or meaningful fellowship from a robot. For love to be meaningful, the power of choice must be there. For obedience to be meaningful, the power of choice must be there. And so that my worship of God, my love for God might be fully meaningful to God, He gave to me the capacity of choice. I don't have to worship Him. I don't have to love Him. I can choose to do it or not to do it; that's my choice.
But when I choose to love God, then my love for God becomes meaningful unto God because it's a choice. I'm not a robot, I'm not just responding in a preset condition that God has built into my mental apparatus where He pushes a button in heaven and there are certain little flashes that go across my brain and my body responds automatically to these impulses from God and I say, "I love You, God". It doesn't turn anybody on. God wants our love to be meaningful. He gave us power of choice, but then He had to give us something to choose.But in order that the power of choice be meaningful, not only must there be something to choose but then God must respect the choice that I make. In other words, He can't force me to choose. It isn't an arm-twisting God that has you in a hammer hold and says, "Say, Praise the Lord! Say, Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord!" If He forced me to choose, than it's no longer meaningful. So He respects the choice that I make.If I make a choice and oh no, you can't do that, than what's the value of having a choice? So God has given me the free will, the power to exercise that free will and then He respects the choices that I have made. Woo, that's awesome! For that means that I have the capacity to choose my own destiny, to be with God or not to be with God. And when I make my choice, God respects the choice that I make. And if I choose not to be with God, He honors that choice.Now this is why it is so ridiculous to say, well, how can a God of love send a man to hell? He doesn't. He never did, He never will. Man goes there by his own choice, which God respects and honors. If you choose to go to hell, God will respect your choice; otherwise, giving you the power of choice would be meaningless. And then so it's very awesome to realize that capacity of God, that God-like capacity that I have of choosing, choosing my destiny. Now God calls upon us to make a choice and God does seek to influence our choices. But when you come to the bottom line, the choice is yours.Satan is also seeking to influence your choice. But the bottom line is that neither God nor Satan makes the choice for you. You make the choice for yourself. Every man is responsible for his own destiny. God has created us that way. And so He placed the tree. He gave the warning. And then He left man for his own choice.
Rick, If Eve was perfect yet able to be deceived. What does that say about a perfect god being deceived? Please think and not just parrot what you have been taught.
I am closing this one. It's getting too long.
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