Tuesday, June 28, 2011

Why Atheism?

I like this summary of the problems with Pascal's Wager from Godless Geeks.

From "Why Atheism?" by Mark Thomas


"Pascal’s Wager

There is an argument for belief in God that is called Pascal’s Wager, named for Blaise Pascal who conceived it. The argument goes like this: Either there is a god or there isn’t. If you believe in God, and God exists, then you win big time and go to Heaven. If you don’t believe in God, and God exists, you lose big time and go to Hell. If there is no god, then you haven’t lost much by believing. So the obvious choice is to believe in God, because it’s simply the best bet.

Pascal’s Wager has several faults. The biggest problem is that it’s not a proof of any god’s existence; it’s just an argument for believing, a method of extorting the gullible thru fear. Like many other such arguments we have discussed, it also fails to denote exactly which god it refers to. Pascal’s Wager could be applied to any god that offers rewards and punishments. Taken to the extreme, following the wager would necessitate betting on the god with the worst hell, so it could be avoided. It's impossible to know which god to worship, and which (perhaps jealous) gods to spurn. I doubt if many Christians would convert to Islam if the wager were presented by a Muslim who told them that Muslim Hell is worse than Christian Hell and Muslim Heaven is better than Christian Heaven.

Pascal’s Wager assumes that the chosen god's mind is knowable, and that he doesn't mind people believing in him for explicitly selfish reasons. Perhaps he actually prefers independent thinkers such as atheists, not obsequious followers. Since the Christian god Yahweh is on record as having lied, there's no way to know his intentions. It would be quite possible for a true believer to discover on Judgment Day that the destination was not Heaven. Yahweh, in his infinitely mysterious ways, had other plans; and there would be no appeal or debate with an omnipotent being.

Another problem with Pascal’s Wager is that it implicitly assumes that the odds of the two possibilities are similar. Since the odds of the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim god existing are zero, the wager creates a false dilemma. The wager even goes against the doctrine that many religions have where gambling is sinful. Note also that the existence of the wager and the fact that so many people think that it's relevant illuminate the lack of actual evidence for God.

Pascal’s Wager also depends on the idea that you don’t lose much by believing. This has been false for many who have trusted in their god for help or guidance, instead of seeking reality-based solutions. People have fought, killed and died for their belief in their god. Far too many have died because they (or their parents) chose prayer instead of medicine. Swords, bullets, poison, and poisonous snakes have killed many who thought that they were protected by their god. Even without these more dramatic effects, believers often devote significant time, energy and money to worshipping their god.

Beliefs in a god (and the often concomitant ideas of divine punishment and reward) too often make people more willing to accept inequalities in this life. Low-paid factory workers and slaves were taught that their rewards were in the afterlife, so they should be meek and obedient in this life to ensure their (imaginary) rewards. Even the factory and slave owners could think that they were part of their god's divine plan, and thus deserved their earthly rewards.

God-belief has real expenses that can be large or destructive.

The last problem with Pascal’s Wager is that it completely ignores and even denigrates intellectual integrity and honesty; the wager assumes that people can believe something just because they want to. As an example, let’s talk about belief in Santa Claus. Don’t we have more respect for a child who figures out that Santa doesn’t exist, and says so, rather than continuing to lie so he can get more presents? It’s a sign of growing integrity and maturity for children to stop believing in Santa. Similarly, adults can give up belief in a god when they realize that there’s no real evidence for their god. Christians can quit being “sheep” or “children of god” and become intellectually honest.

The loss of intellectual integrity and honesty engendered by Pascal’s Wager gives some insight into how apparently rational people can behave so irrationally. By accepting the wager, they have (perhaps implicitly) given up these important traits."


rick b said...

The article says Pascal’s Wager has several faults. The biggest problem is that it’s not a proof of any god’s existence;

There is plenty of proof that God exists, Just because people would rather reject the evidence and say it does not exist does not mean it is true.

You and any atheist can say, well it is weak minded simple people who believe in God. Well I would argue that many big name, or big names for their day and age came to belief in Christ as a result of the over whelming evidence.

Big name former lawyers were lee strobel and Josh McDowel, they were former lawyers.

A former high school science teacher who taught evolution that came to Christ as a result of the lack of evidence for evolution is named Rick Oliver.

Then a former big named scientist in the scientific community that came to Christ from the lack of evidence is, Roger Oakland.

You can share all you want about the so called over whelming evidence you feel you have for your position, But the question you cannot answer is, if they feel your position is flawed and God is real, why would they leave the belief in no God and Evolution if the evidence is so overwhelming. I mean if the No God life style is so superior then they must have saw some evidence that they simply could not deny.

Then the article said it’s just an argument for believing, a method of extorting the gullible thru fear

I dont agree, I believe Hell is real, and according to the bible we should be telling both sides of the story, the Love and mercy and grace of God, But also the fact that hell exists. The Bible tells us it is the Love of God that leads us to repent, not the fear of hell.

Also I see lots of Missionary groups going out and feeding the poor in starving nations, or building Hospitals, both here in America and over seas.

I see all kinds of acts of love and charity being done in the name of God or some persons religion.

Can you name any group of atheists that are going over seas in the name of no god or in the name of atheism and feeding the poor and building hospitals or caring for children Etc? If you say yes, provide evidence so I can look them up.

rick b said...

The article says Like many other such arguments we have discussed, it also fails to denote exactly which god it refers to.

Maybe It's just me, But I just figured people knew with out asking it is talking about the God of the Bible. But for those that dont know, I guess I would have assumed they simply could ask, what God are you talking about.

Pascal’s Wager could be applied to any god that offers rewards and punishments. Taken to the extreme, following the wager would necessitate betting on the god with the worst hell, so it could be avoided.

This is where your wrong, If you really get down and study other religions, almost all religions deny hell, and many that claim to have some type of hell, allow for people to get out of it after some works are down or payment is made. But over all most religions deny hell even exists even in their own belief system.

It's impossible to know which god to worship, and which (perhaps jealous) gods to spurn. I doubt if many Christians would convert to Islam if the wager were presented by a Muslim who told them that Muslim Hell is worse than Christian Hell and Muslim Heaven is better than Christian Heaven.

Any Christian that knows the beliefs of Islam would laugh, since the god is of Islam is not a loving god, not even towards his own followers. Unlike in what Christians believe where we believe God died for us, That is an act of love, some one dying for you so you can live, the god of Islam wants us to die for him and with what we believe, we have assurance of salvation simply based on Gods grace for us. In Islam, No matter what you do for the god of Islam, you have no way of knowing if you will enter the Muslim heaven until after you die, then you really have to hope the god of Islam is in a good mood and will let you in.

rick b said...

The article says Since the Christian god Yahweh is on record as having lied, there's no way to know his intentions.

Really, where did He lie and about what?

Interested said...

Genesis 2:17 states, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die." In Genesis 3:4, we see the serpent telling Eve the truth. “'You will not certainly die,' the serpent said to the woman."

rick b said...

We died a spiritual death. We are body and soul, Even Jesus says, we must be born again, and He is talking about our spirit.

Also the Bible states that we can die twice, The body dies, then we go on to face a spiritual death, that is when we go to hell. So no God did not lie. Try again.

Shelli said...

Really? Did you read this yourself before you posted it? First of all, God does not lie. He cannot lie since it against His character. Secondly, the wager does not say the "God of the Bible." Thirdly, there is hope in Christ Jesus alone. The things people do in the name of "God" are not God's commands for them. If it does not line up with the Bible, then why do it? God desires us to live a life that is pleasing to Him. If you are a true believer, you want to please God, not just to get out of going to hell. Hell is real! Repent, so you don't have to go there! Why would you stubbornly hold onto something like atheism when you know in your heart of hearts God exists and loves you with an unconditional love beyond your comprehension? I know you know this. God loves you even when you ignore and blaspheme Him. He will continue to, but you need to choose... What will it be?

rick b said...

You can take this information anyway you like, I just thought it was was interesting.


"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights." - Genesis 7:11-12

In Genesis 6-8, the Bible describes a flood of global proportions. The fountains of the great deep exploded out of the ground. Something happened to that great firmament that God created to divide the waters above from the waters below, and water came crashing down on the earth after hundreds of years of dew watering the earth without the help of rain. During the Flood, it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, and the waters rose high enough to cover the tops of the mountains (however tall they were at that time). It was a devastating, catastrophic event that destroyed all the land-dwelling creatures on the planet, except for those protected on the ark that Noah built.

The Bible is not alone. Around the world, legends can be found of a global flood. Many of the details are different, but the essential elements tend to be there; a massive flood wiped out everybody but a particular righteous man. Often boats and animals are involved. The use of animals and birds to check the receding of the waters, and the violence of the flood are common themes.

The most famous flood story outside of the Bible is found in the Epic of Gilgamesh, discovered in the ruins of Asurbanipal's library in Nineveh. Gilgamesh may have actually been a real person; he is listed in the Sumerian King List in the first dynasty of Uruk (and apparently reigned for 126 years).

rick b said...


In Tablet 11, after a variety of adventures, Gilgamesh meets a man named Utnapishtim who survived the Great Flood. Utnapishtim tells Gilgamesh his story, which parallels the Biblical account in many ways. There are differences, of course. In Gilgamesh, multiple gods are involved, the flood lasted just a week, and the boat landed on Mount Nisir rather than in the mountains of Ararat. However, there are a significant number of details that are the same between the two accounts. In the Gilgamesh epic, Utnapishtim describes how he was ordered to build a large boat, which he coated with pitch and into which he brought "the seed of life of everything." The flood wiped out everybody but righteous Utnapishtim and his family, and while they waited for the waters to drain away, he sent out a dove, a swallow, and then a raven to check for land. Later, Utnapishtim made a sacrifice.

The Biami:
Missionaries made their way to the Biami people of Papua New Guinea in the late 20th century and discovered that this cannibalistic people had Creation and Flood myths already in their culture. While their Creation myth was fairly vague, their Flood myth had many similarities to the Biblical account:

The Biami tell about a great flood that came and killed everybody on the earth except for their ancestors. There is no boat in the story, but the Biami ancestors climbed into a Gobia Tree, and they took with them all their animals and the things they needed for planting crops. Once the waters receded, they came down and repopulated the land. Until the missionaries came, the Biami did not know that other people existed on the earth aside from themselves and the tribes around them.

Andaman Islands:
After the British arrived on the Andaman Islands, a place isolated throughout much of known history, they found people who spoke strains of very old Asian languages. In the local mythology, a flood came upon the earth as a result of the wickedness of humanity. According to the myth, the Creator Puluga found that humankind grew disobedient, and he sent a flood that covered the whole land. Only two men and two women in a canoe were saved from the flood. When the waters sank, they landed. Then Puluga recreated the birds and animals, and created a fire in the damp world.

North America:
The Chippewa have a story in which a hero, Nanabozho, followed the Great Serpent to the deep lake where it had dragged and killed Nanabozho's cousin. There the Great Serpent lived with all his evil spirits. In order to kill the Serpent, Nanabozho told the sun to shine on the lake and make it boil so that the Serpent would come out. After the Serpent emerged, Nanabozho shot him and fatally wounded him. Before he died, however, the Serpent caused the waters of the lake to boil out and flood the land.

rick b said...

Cont with more,

"Madly the flood rolled over the land, over the tracks of Nanabozho, carrying with it rocks and trees."

Nanabozho and other men, women and animals climbed to the tallest mountain, where Nanabozho built a raft from timber. The people and animals on the raft watched even the tallest mountains disappear. Then they floated there until slowly the mountains and hills began to appear again as the waters receded.

The Ottawa tell of the prophet Kwi-wi-sens Nenaw-bo-zhoo, whose name means, "the greatest clown-boy in the world." The prophet sought revenge on the sea-god for killing his beautiful wolf-dog. He waited until the god came on land, and then shot him through the heart. In revenge, water monsters sent mountains of water after him "which swept down the forests like grass before the whirlwind." According to the account:

He continued to flee before the raging flood, but could find no dry land. In sore despair he then called upon the God of Heaven to save him, when there appeared before him a great canoe, in which were pairs of all kinds of land-beasts and birds, being rowed by a most beautiful maiden, who let down a rope and drew him up into the boat. The flood raged on; but, though mountains of water were continually being hurled after the prophet, he was safe.

After a time, the prophet sent a beaver to swim down and check and see how deep the waters were. The beaver nearly drowned. Then he sent a muskrat, and it nearly drowned, but it brought back a handful of dirt. The prophet tied that ball of earth to the raven and sent it to fly over the waters to make them recede. When the world dried, the prophet and the beautiful woman repopulated the earth.

One Choctaw version of the Flood story tells about Oklatabashih (People's mourner), who lived in the distant past. The Great Spirit grieved because the people of earth had become so wicked. He told Oklatabashih to build a large boat and take on it his family and one male and one female animal of all the animals on earth. Oklatabashih collected all the animals, except for some particularly quick birds, and then went on the boat. It rained for a long time and thousands of animals and people died, but there were still groups found here and there. Then a raging wall of waters crashed down on those that were left and killed everybody except for Oklatabashih and those in the boat. The boat floated safely for many moons. Oklatabashih sent out a dove, which returned with grass in its beak. Finally, the waters receded and those on the boat went out to repopulate the earth.

rick b said...

And more,

The Indians of Brazil had various versions of a Flood legend when they were discovered by Europeans. In the story, only two brothers and their wives survived a global flood that destroyed everybody else on earth. In some accounts the brothers survive by climbing the tallest tree on the top of the tallest mountain. In others, they rode on a canoe.

The Frenchman André Thevet related a story by the Indians about Cape Frio in the 16th Century. The Indians told about a great medicine-man named Sommay who had two sons called Tamendonare and Ariconte. Tamendonare was the righteous brother who took care of his wife and children and worked the ground. Ariconte just wanted to subdue the people around him, including his brother. One day, during an argument over Ariconte's violence and pride, the village they lived in was transported to the sky. The brothers remained on the earth. Then Tamendonare stamped the earth and a great fountain of water sprang out and shot higher than the hills. The water continued to spout until it covered the whole earth. The two brothers climbed the trees on the tallest mountains and pulled their wives up with them, and were therefore the only ones to survive the great flood.

The Flood Memory:
After the Tower of Babel incident, humanity spread across the face of the earth and took the memory of their ancestor Noah's great escape with them. There are certainly stories about local floods among tribes – floods that took place long after The Deluge. However, the theme of a massive flood that destroyed all living things can be found among tribes and peoples all over the world.

The Bible's version of the story, however, goes into the greatest detail. It describes the dimensions of the ark, names the survivors' descendants for many generations, and gives a constant notation of the events' dates. These are facts that cannot be easily dismissed.

"And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen." - Genesis 8:3-5

rick b said...

The article says The last problem with Pascal’s Wager is that it completely ignores and even denigrates intellectual integrity and honesty; the wager assumes that people can believe something just because they want to.

This fits the belief of atheism. You guys believe we were created by way of the big bang, yet have zero evidence for it. Even many scientists that believe in evolution admit we cannot prove the big bang, we simply believe by faith it happened and we go from their. How is that intellectual integrity and honesty. Then to teach it as fact in school with out any evidence.

Then the article says, As an example, let’s talk about belief in Santa Claus. Don’t we have more respect for a child who figures out that Santa doesn’t exist, and says so, rather than continuing to lie so he can get more presents?

Why even lie in the first place, Yes some Christians even raise their kids to believe in Santa and the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy, but still you must lie to your kids and tell them they exist, and if your bad, no gifts.

I never did that. So who is more honest, the person that tells their kids from day one these people dont exist, or the person who lies and says they do exist, then leaves it to the child to figure out they have been lied to all their lives.

Interested said...

Shelli why do you assume I didn't read it? I don't believe any of the things of which you speak. I think the bible presents a poor example for living and a less that stellar historical document.

You say god cannot lie, mmmm, I thought he was all omnipotent,all powerful. Guess not.

Sorry, I find no hope in Jesus since I'm not sure he existed and if he did I certainly do not believe he is divine god.

Why would you want to live your life pleasing someone else unless you are afraid of what he/she could do to you if you didn't.

Sorry, I have no fear of death. I spend my time living the best way I can and loving every minute of it.

Interested said...

Rick, two things: Interestingly enough the flood stories you recite are quite familiar to me. They were a great help when I was trying to make sense of my life. After being a believer, not out of choice, but because my parents passed it on to me, I bagan to search for answers. Odd how these same stories provide less confidence in the biblical story while giving you a stronger belief. However one note; The Epic of Gilgamesh is much older that the stories in the bible.

Secondly, if you do not teach your children about the imaginary character of Santa Claus how can you justify the teaching of a god you cannot see?

Interested said...

Again Rick, proof is tangible. You continue to say there is proof that god exist but where is it? Your proof is based on the bible and your feelings, I respect that but it is not proof.

rick b said...

Interested, Proof is in creation. Our bodies our so complex even the greatest scientists are stumped over many things still. Even the most basic single cell form of life is so complex it boggles the mind.

Then their are over 1,800 prophecies in the Bible. So many of them are past now but with such great detail and accuracy, that many people who dont believe in God say, the bible was written down after the time frame for the prophecy, yet these prophecy's came to pass proving the Bible true.

The fact that the Jews still exist, Name one nation or people group mentioned in history from 500 years ago or longer that still exist to this day, that still use their language, and still have their homeland. You cannot do it with any nation but the Jews. They are even mentioned in secular history from 100's of years ago.

Anonymous said...

I see your still being an idiot for Christ Rick. Ever hear of the Chinese, Japanese, English, Africans, Scandinavian, Russian, etc...need I go on or is it clear to you that you speak a bunch of bullshit?

Anonymous said...

Forgot to mention the Scottish and Irish. Really Rick, you should remain silent lest more people think you are an idiot.cymen

rick b said...

Non religion, It seems your the idiot no me, You come here, just toss out a bunch of people groups and say, see, your stupid.

Yet all you did was mention people groups. My point as I said about the Jews is they existed thousands of years ago, they lost their home land, and instead of just being assimilated into the groups of people they lived with, they maintained their national identity and came back into their homeland.

Show me from History where that happened with all the groups you mentioned.

Plus I mentioned this a long time ago, But why is it the Jews own a piece of land smaller than New Jersey, yet they are always being attacked simply for who they are? They get attacked and nobody cares, it rarely makes the news.

Yet when they defend themselves, That makes major news, we are told are evil they are, and they need to simply give up all their land and go away.

But I suspect your a Jew hater and dont care. And I bet you cannot tell me why all this is.

An Idiot cannot debate with evidence and reason, and Idiot can only accuse, call names and run his mouth, so it seems I am not the idiot, you are.

But then I also suspect you will cry that I am saying your an idiot, but it's ok for you to say I am. So put on your big boy pants and either provide evidence or take you big boy pants off, and put your diaper back on.

Anonymous said...

No Rick, your the idiot. You asked "Name one nation or people group mentioned in history from 500 years ago or longer that still exist to this day, that still use their language, and still have their homeland. You cannot do it with any nation but the Jews." and I answered. BTW what about the French?

rick b said...

So your saying the french and all the other groups were driven from their homeland, They no longer had a land, they were out all over the world for 500 plus years, even over 2,000 years as the Jews, the french and all these people groups you mentioned lived all over the world, in other countries and nations, taken over by other countries, Then despite all that, they kept their native language, their written language, they never assimilated into these other nations.

Then when they were given their land back, They all went back? You can prove this? Ok, Lets see it.

Plus why dodge the issue of the hatred that is world wide towards a people group? But the only group that is attacked over and over, year after year for hundreds of years. And the only nation being told all the time, we want you wiped from the face of the earth. The only nation where the entire world is going after them over something or another. Please explain why that is.

Anonymous said...

See Rick, this is the kind of stupidity that you were banned from my blog for. You asked a specific question, I answered that specific question and now you can move the goalposts all you want but it only shows what an incorrigible, inhuman piece of Christian trash you are. BTW, how about those Germans?

rick b said...

Sorry, But I dont move any goal posts, I refute trash like you because you believe that we came here by the bog bang, we have zero evidence for it your hero's of the faith say we believe in the big bang, we cannot prove it, but will say schools must teach it and anyone who teaches other wise will be fired.

As to going further back in time, thats not changing the goal posts since we can see from secular history and sources other than the Bible that the Jews existed over two thousand years ago. We can go back even 4,000 years ago. The Germans cannot. Also speaking of human garbage, I see you dodge questions. Garbage cannot reply so thats why you dont. Did you know hell will burn with fire forever. and everyone that goes there will never leave.

I know you dont care, But the funny thing is, you will be tormented forever by that fact that I told you the truth and you rejected it, You think you hate me now, just wait, thoughts of me telling you the truth and you rejecting it resulting in you hearing my voice haunting you for all of eternity, What a bummer

rick b said...

Here's a question Non,
You seem to have avoided a few of mine already, but here is another one.

Lets just say that the entire Bible was written two hundred years ago. We know it's not, but lets just say it was.

The Bible talks about a one world government and a one world leader that is coming. Funny how if you follow the news, past and present world leaders and U.S presidents are all talking about how we need a one world government and currency.

Did they all read the Bible and say, That's a great idea, we need to do that. You can say it will never happen, but the lingo being spread by all people everywhere is, We are a global society. We are being set up for it already.

Look at some of the foreign governments, they are so broke they are rioting in the streets. The U.S is headed that way. Listen to the news, They are saying if we dont raise our debt ceiling were screwed. They are saying even if we do raise it, if we do, do it to late we could still be in deep trouble.

Also we know for a fact, certain countries are trying to attack us, if we get hit with some major attack, like a Bio, chemical, or nuclear, It could mean the end of the U.S Since the economy is so bad and that would push us over the edge.

Funny how the Bible speaks of this and we are heading that way. Then going along with the idea of the Bible being only 200 years old.

Take the book of revelation. It says the Jews will rebuild a temple in their home land. Funny how they are back in their homeland since 1948. Prior to that, the Jews did not have a nation or homeland, So somehow the Bible said it would happen and it did. Amazing. And if that's not enough, the Book of Revelation says, the Jews will have power in their temple so when the anti Christ comes in and defiles the temple, the entire world will see that happen, and the two witness killed and laying in the streets.

Two hundred years ago, we would have never been able to witness something worldwide like that. But now with Cell phones with cameras and technology we can witness events world wide. How do you explain that being in the Bible?

Also the Jews are ready to rebuild the temple, they have everything all ready to go and can re-build it in 3 months or less once they get the OK to build.

You can go on line and look up the temple mount institute, and I am going to Israel this November and will tour this site and take pictures of it. Hard to explain how this is taught in the Bible and it is happening, unless the Bible is correct.

Anonymous said...

You don't understand the concept of a blog do you? If you want to ask questions that are not the subject of this blog post, join a forum or start your own blog. What you are doing is showing an extreme amount of disrespect for Alison.

rick b said...

You opened your mouth and said I was wrong, so you not only cannot answer questions, But you can say what you want and not allow me to respond. Then in the article is implies their is no evidence for God, I replied and gave evidence, So I am keeping with the post.

You know you dont have to reply to me if you dont want to. If you cannot back up what you say and reply with evidence, why even open your mouth? No one knows your a fool till you open your mouth and show everyone.

Anonymous said...

Are you that fucking brain dead you don't even remember what you asked? You asked "Name one nation or people group mentioned in history from 500 years ago or longer that still exist to this day, that still use their language, and still have their homeland. You cannot do it with any nation but the Jews." and I answered with quite a few nations. BTW, how about Spain?

rick b said...

I'm not brain dead, But I then did say, ok, lets go back 4,000 years. You can say all you want that, that is moving the goal post, but it is more a matter of, you hate the truth.

Because I can go back in history 4,000 years with the Jews, Ask that same question and only the Jews fit that profile. Then when you said Spain, or any other country, all you are doing is tossing names out, you not saying that they were kicked out or taken over by force from an opposing country, as the Jews were. Then after being removed and scattered all over the world, they came back into their homeland, with their national identity, language, and people.

You dont like the fact that you can do that with the Jews but no other people group, so we have two problems, You avoid questions you cannot answer, therefore you only focus on the Jews homeland and only stop at me saying 500 years.

Then you dont like how I then say, ok, let go back really far, you instead cry about me adding more time on, well boo hoo, I can do it because History shows it happened.

Then you can only call me names and insult me. Then you say I am disrespecting Interested, But you mentioned her name, That is disrespectful since you can ask her yourself, We spoke a few times via private email.

I promised her I would never tell anyone her real name, I never did that. Thats to me shows you were the disrespectful person. And no I will not share what we spoke about, if she does than thats fine, she can say what she wants, I have nothing to hide, But I do respect her by not sharing at her request.

You are the one that keeps harping the Bible cannot be supported with facts, I provide them, you cannot refute them so you have to call me names and avoid questions that you cannot answer.