Saturday, August 18, 2007

Remember when...

Old Methuselah...finally died.

It was a long, long time since the days when God walked
with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, and things had changed.

Everyone forgot about God. They didn't pray to him
anymore.They didn't care about pleasing him. All they cared about was themselves. All they cared about was getting what they wanted when they wanted it.

And after a while it didn't matter if anyone had to get hurt to get it.And the world became a terrible place. It wasn't safe to go out into the streets anymore. Robbers and bandits would jump on you and take your loaf of bread. And if they beat you up, no one would stop to help.

They would just walk by, and maybe take the apple you had in your pocket too.


People were lying and cheating - and even killing each other - everywhere.

There was no safe place. You weren't even safe in your own bed at night.

God's beautiful world became a mean, awful, scary place to live.

That's what happens
when people forget about God.

http://www.essex1.com/people/paul/bible8.html

But god is not forgotten and 85% of Americans believe in god and want to please him. Prayer goes on every day by millions all over the world and yet...

  • It isn't safe on the streets
  • People lie, cheat and steal
  • I don't feel safe in my home

..and the world is still a mean, awful and scary place.

14 comments:

Guitanguran said...

It isn't safe on the streets...

...because people choose to make it that way.

People lie, cheat and steal...

...because they choose to

I don't feel safe in my home

I'm sorry that you don't, but its up to you to change that.

..and the world is still a mean, awful and scary place...

...because its a fallen world we live in.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the 10 Commandments were established by God, rather than men. IF we just focus on the last 5 (won't include adultery) that we find as the framework of our justice system today, and everyone did what they said to do, every time, you wouldn't have those problems, would you?


Hey, I've cut it down to 5, with God out of the picture, and we as a species still can't get 5 little rules down?

Hey, I'll even take out the coveting thing, as its just wanting other people's stuff and not actually taking it.

Now we're down to 4.

I'll make you a deal. You never ever tell a lie again, and I won't either.

If you never ever show up late or leave early from work or school, or come back from lunch 5 minutes late, or forget to leave company or school bought pens, paper clips, blank discs, Spenda packages or paper where they belong, I won't either.

Well, we both know we're not able to keep that bargain for the rest of our lives, now are we?

Why can't we even do the less than 1/2 of what God says we're supposed to do, or even what little of His list our justice system and rules of ethics dictate?

Why indeed...

Interested said...

Excellent question. If god really exists and cares, or if he could, don't you think he would correct the mess we have made of our lives?

Guitanguran said...

Well, as I've pointed out, He gave us a really, really short list of rules to follow, and yet we can't follow them consistently.

The mess is of our choosing, not His doing. Obstensibly, the correction is ours to make.

But...

What else would you have Him to do?

Interested said...

You are absolutely right.

We made the mess. I guess that is why I can't believe that a supreme being can exist. How could this all knowing, ever present, all powerful, and loving god allow us to make such a mess?

It just makes no sense to have a creator who breathes life into a pile of clay and then allows his creation to destroy itself.

Today I was chasing around on the I-net and found this site
http://www.biblegod.org/

I am often given scripture by christians who want to use the bible to prove that there is a god. In turn I have used certain scriptures to show why I can't accept their "proof". This site puts it all together for me and others who are interested.

rick b said...

Interested said :But god is not forgotten and 85% of Americans believe in god and want to please him. Prayer goes on every day by millions all over the world and yet...

* It isn't safe on the streets
* People lie, cheat and steal
* I don't feel safe in my home

..and the world is still a mean, awful and scary place.

You say 85 percent believe in God, but which God? Not Jesus, if we say Jesus and really do believe then we would not have these problems. Let me ask you a question, since you say you dont believe in God and dont follow him, why should a God you deny do anything for you?

A lot of people either deny God exists or say they believe in him, yet want nothing to do with Him, but then get mad He does nothing for them, Why should He do stuff for people that either do not listen to Him or claim He is not real? Rick b

Interested said...

Rick I do not expect "him" to do anything. My point is the fruitless belief in something that does nothing for our world. YOU believe but every day you are disappointed because our world is not the utopia your god promises...if we believe in him. It is not that he does nothing for me but that he does nothing for those who do believe. It is tragic to see those I love, pray and pray and receive nothing in the way of help. How can I believe when there is no relief for the suffering in this life? The only life we have.

Guitanguran said...

"It just makes no sense to have a creator who breathes life into a pile of clay and then allows his creation to destroy itself."

Last time I checked, world population has grown, not getting smaller. But that's another discussion.

It does come to down to some real basic ideas here.

1. We have the ability to choose what kind of world we have, and we consistently choose wrong.

2. We have the ability choose to live up to what is called God's standard of right and wrong, whether we believe He exists or not. We choose not to. I'd even go so far as to call it genetic.

3. Since we continually miss the mark, there must be something wrong with us. I mean, how hard can it be?

4. Those rules are God's way of letting us know we're not up to following the rules. By and large, I'd say that's the main reason things are still messed up. We're ignoring the truth. He's just waiting for each of us to figure it out.

5. He came to us in human form to show us how its done, and to take us off the hook for messing up.

6. And, He continues to give us the freedom to choose.

What say you?

Interested said...

I choose to be a good person,not because I believe in a god or his punishment but because I see the value of doing so.

guitanguran you said
3. Since we continually miss the mark, there must be something wrong with us. I mean, how hard can it be?

But if god made us and gave us choice, I don't see how we can be blamed for what we do. Answer one question for me...What is the point (for the creator)of creating a perfect world with perfect creatures and then giving them the choice of making a mess out of it? What's in it for god? He already had a perfect world with people who worship him...why allow himself to be overruled?

Guitanguran said...

"I choose to be a good person,not because I believe in a god or his punishment but because I see the value of doing so."

Well now, how would you define a person as being 'good'?

Is it doing all the right things most of the time, or most of the right things all of the time, or what? Who gets to decide how good is 'good enough'? Your definition of good may be different from your neighbor's. So, who is right?

On the other hand, the Bible makes it plain that the standard of 'good' is an absolute, no exceptions.

"But if god made us and gave us choice, I don't see how we can be blamed for what we do."

I think you have it backwards. If He made us and gave us NO ability to choose, we couldn't be blamed now could we?

"What is the point (for the creator)of creating a perfect world with perfect creatures and then giving them the choice of making a mess out of it?"

You don't have kids, do you?

Kinda depends on what you mean by 'perfect world', doesn't it? With what you're describing, we'd be mindless robots with 'perfect programming'. Do you want your freedom to choose taken away from you?

Wish I had more time...

rick b said...

Interested Here are some problems I see.

You say God is not loving because he allows evil, Humans allow evil, we have a death penalty, we see a person kill in cold blood even get so brutal they rape and torture the person first and when they go to court they admit to the crime, do we put him to death? No, we give him appeal after appeal even though we know he did it, then we give him life in prison with a shot at parole if he is good. Then we see killers or child molesters get released and do it again, how are we not putting a stop to evil, yet you get mad at God for that.

You might not believe the Bible but take Adam and Eve, they were created perfect, they lived in perfection, yet God told them exactly what not to do, did they listen? no. So God choose to send his son to die for us to redeem us, he could have instead just killed Adam and Eve and did it again.

God destroyed the world with a flood, started with only 8 people, they saw the old world, they saw the flood and the death they saw the new world, were they perfect after that and taught their kids to behave? No, Noah got drunk, wow good example for the wife and kids. You say People who follow God are not taken care of and it not fair, Go back read your Bible again, God never once said, if you follow me you life will be a bed of roses and nothing bad will ever happen.

Those who follow Christ know bad will happen, but we also know we have a perfect world awaiting us and our reward and rest will come then.

Interested you said (I choose to be a good person,not because I believe in a god or his punishment but because I see the value of doing so.)

Lots of People who do not believe in a God are good, but Good means nothing, Have you ever once Lied? Have you ever once even one time only stole any thing? Just once did you ever hurt someone, A fight, Called them a bad name, Anything? Then if so your not perfect, why did you do what you did, you choose of your free will to do what you did.

By doing one wrong thing you did what you are complaing about, so if God is real maybe he should have killed you and started over. You want a loving God to remove Evil from the world, you did one bad thing in your life so you commited an act of evil so you should also be removed.

Then when it comes down to are human laws, let me ask you this. The people who do steal, rape,kill, lie, cheat, Etc, they seem to think it is ok for them to do those things, But the people like you who don't do that stuff feel it is wrong, Who decides what is right and what is wrong?

Now lets go back in time to when their was simply two people, No matter if we were created, evolved, aliens put us here or what. We have two people, who decides that murder is right or wrong, or lying is right or wrong. Lets say they two people cannot agree, How come one says rape is correct the other says it is wrong, who is correct? they cannot agree.

If it was some guy breaking into your house and wanted to rape you, do you say, stop that is wrong, why are you correct in your view, but he is wrong, simply because majority rules? Majority ruled with Hitler, yet we believe he was a monster.

It boils down to God created us and can do whatever he wants, he gave us laws to follow, but if you claim, I dont believe that, then Fine, who decides what is right and wrong, the majority? When their was simply only two people on earth like I said, and they could not agree, their was not majority. Rick b

Guitanguran said...

btw, hope you don't think I'm trying to beat you up here...if what you think or believe didn't matter to me, I wouldn't bother commenting.

It sure ain't for the money...

Interested said...

No I don't feel you are trying to beat me up. I enjoy the conversation. I hope one day someone will convince me that god does exist, but until then....

rick b said...

Interested said...

No I don't feel you are trying to beat me up. I enjoy the conversation. I hope one day someone will convince me that god does exist, but until then....


The Bible tells us that we will stand before God someday, and every knee will bow and every tounge will confess Jesus Christ is Lord, But then after that all those who rejected him shall be tossed into the Lake of Fire that burns forever. So someday you will believe, but your believe will not result in salvation. Rick b

Guitanguran said...

Ms. Interested,

It certainly isn't my job to convince you or 'save' you. All I can do is tell you.

Two things:

1. Go to the source.

Forget about the Bible, or the Koran, the book of Morman, or websites that are pro or con, or people like Christopher Hitchens or Billy Graham or me...and ask Him yourself.

That's right. Ask Him yourself.

Be honest. Be yourself.

Just say, "Look, I don't believe you do exist. I don't believe you can exist. Prove it to me."

Say it like you mean it, and mean it.

Now, if I was you, I'd consider real carefully before demanding proof. Its been my experience that people that have, get their proof in ways that can be pretty uncomfortable. Make sure you want it.

2. Get in the water.

You can't really understand about swimming if you don't get in the water. You can be pretty knowledgeable about the backstroke and the butterfly, but that ain't swimming.

One site I have found helpful is TTB.org. Dr. McGee goes completely through the Bible in a five year cycle. He keeps it simple. Keeps it real. He's got a bit of a nasal West Texas twang in his voice that takes some getting used to, but it grows on you.

BTW, Dr. McGee has been dead for over 20 years, so he won't be asking you for money to add an indoor pool to a mansion in Malibu, although the program periodically does ask for donations to cover expenses. Very low key...no $100 prayer hankies or selling your house to prove your faith kind of stuff. Its a good place to start swimming.


That's all I got.

Ball's in your court, and His for that matter.